03:17 < penguincentral> it's for a small business 03:17 < penguincentral> maybe about two-three employees tops 03:17 -!- chimneydials [n=abimanyu@cm30.delta27.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##mac 03:17 < ppc750> btw, can I install OS X Server as an upgrade to my existing OS X? 03:17 < ppc750> (no clean install) 03:17 < penguincentral> ppc750: maybe, not sure though 03:18 * ppc750 will try 03:18 < penguincentral> but the thing is that the other two users would most likely be using windows machines 03:18 < ppc750> penguincentral -- if you're admin, tell them not to use windows 03:18 < penguincentral> one person because specific bookkeeping software is needed that's only on windows 03:18 < NeonMonk> personally, I'd go linux or bsd 03:18 < NeonMonk> http://www.macworld.com/article/131454/2008/01/leopardserver.html 03:19 < NeonMonk> my experiences with OS X Server definitely have pointed to it not working that well with non-mac clients 03:19 < NeonMonk> but as always 03:19 < NeonMonk> YMMV 03:19 < penguincentral> ppc750: and the boss, well... he used windws at his last job 03:19 <@Branes> penguincentral: Windows Home Server. HP Mediasmart Server in particular. Would be perfect for that office setup, and because it talks SMB is happy to work with Macs, too (and, funnily enough, it is Time Machine compliant) 03:19 < penguincentral> where he heavily used outlook, a bit of project 03:19 < LSD`> ppc750: Not what I was getting at. In order to keep OSs other than OS X locked out of the Mac hardware, Apple would have had to invest time, effort and money continually updating things as hackers found new ways to bypass their locks all the whiledealing with people who'd bricked their machines trying some of the more extreme hacks. By conceding that fight to them and releasing Boot Camp and all the bits that make it possible it reduces the r 03:20 -!- ritsuka [n=Ritsuka@host49-217-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined ##mac 03:20 < LSD`> ppc750: However, it's not a concession Steve Jobs would make if it was realistic not to 03:20 < penguincentral> Branes: the thing is that i want to avoid using windows server software as much as i can 03:20 < HEMI> Funny, I want to avoid using Mac server software as much as I can... 03:21 < NeonMonk> indeed 03:21 < HEMI> Cause OS X Server is a steaming pile. :) 03:21 < NeonMonk> I'm not a huge fan of Windows servers either 03:21 < penguincentral> HEMI: i thought it might be decent, but that's why i'm doing the research 03:21 < NeonMonk> but they're better than OS X Server 03:21 < HEMI> NeonMonk: I'm glad you started showing up. It's nice to know that I'm not the ONLY person that hates OS X Server. 03:21 < NeonMonk> for most things 03:21 < LSD`> WHS has its advantages, the problem though is the only way to really get it is by buying machines with it 03:21 < HEMI> penguincentral: run away. Run away *now*. 03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: have you got experience in os x server? 03:22 < HEMI> Hell, I'd pick a Linux server over OS X Server, and that's saying a _lot_. 03:22 < HEMI> penguincentral: 2.5 years worth. 03:22 < NeonMonk> haha, I've always presumed everyone thought of OS X Server as a bit of a joke 03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: fair enough 03:22 < penguincentral> ok, let's see what i need 03:22 < penguincentral> i would need a mail server, a web server 03:22 < penguincentral> file server 03:22 < HEMI> I need...To go fold some laundry. brb. 03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: right-o 03:23 < penguincentral> what would be nice is if i had the ability to control what programs are on the client computers 03:23 < HEMI> With OS X Server you'll get a mail server that, after the 10.5.3 update, crashes randomly if you leave ClamAV enabled. :) 03:23 < HEMI> afk. 03:23 < penguincentral> a bit of remote desktop 03:23 < penguincentral> um 03:23 < penguincentral> i think that's it 03:24 < NeonMonk> well forget OS X Server 03:24 < penguincentral> NeonMonk: then if it's *that* bad then why do apple offer it? 03:25 < NeonMonk> well, if you're administering a small network of Macs 03:25 < NeonMonk> it's *ok* 03:25 < NeonMonk> that's about all I'd use it for 03:26 < penguincentral> and i'd also need a calendar server 03:26 < penguincentral> forgot that :) 03:26 -!- Netsplit heinlein.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: rtwomey, Blue_Ice, fred, ritsuka, seventoes, |omni|, the_giver, KeeperOfTheSoul, MrMac2, genesis^, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 03:27 < NeonMonk> mmm netsplit 03:27 < HEMI> Back. 03:27 < HEMI> penguincentral: the *main* things to understand about OS X Server: 03:27 < NeonMonk> penguincentral: honestly I'd probably just go with a windows server for an environment like that 03:27 < HEMI> 1) the QA on the third party software is _nonexistant_. This is evidenced by the ClamAV crashing BS, the PHP/Squirrelmail BS, etc. 03:27 < NeonMonk> or pick a proper linux vendor 03:27 < penguincentral> NeonMonk: the thing is that i'm not going to be in the office 5 days a week 03:28 < penguincentral> so it needs to be reliable 03:28 < penguincentral> HEMI: i see 03:28 < thewizzard> from what i hear Windows 2003 SBS is pretty reliable (and it includes Exchange AFAIK, so mail and calendar would be adressed) 03:28 < HEMI> 2) *Any* non-standard config or change you make automatically makes it unsupported. Just by setting up NFS mounts by editing /etc/exports by hand---which you have to do to set up NFS---is "unsupported." If you have to hand-edit the apache config or anything of the sort, guess what? No support. Say you want to compile something that came with the server for an extra feature (like, in our case, needing PHP to talk to Oracle)? Again, no support. 03:29 -!- Netsplit over, joins: @Branes, ritsuka, the_giver, MrMac2, seventoes, genesis^, Blue_Ice, |omni|, fred, rtwomey (+1 more) 03:29 -!- factorx [n=asdf@dslb-084-060-051-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30 < HEMI> 3) the documentation is abysmally bad. We have a Thawte SSL cert that I obtained by creating a key pair, creating a CSR, sending it off to Thawte, having it signed and installing it. Apple's docs give you three or four (I lost count and don't care to look now) methods to replace an already-existing cert before (or after) it expires, but guess what? _None of them work._ 03:31 < HEMI> With every *sane* OS on the planet, you can re-use key pairs/CSRs. NOT OS X SERVER! The _only_ way I've been able to replace a cert with another cert signed for the same FQDN is to completely re-generate keys/CSRS _every time_. That's asinine. 03:32 < HEMI> 4) Customer service/support for Server is (unsurprisingly, to me anyway) horrible. They have ZERO idea about Server at all. 03:32 < ppc750> okay, HEMI, OS X Server is hit 03:32 < ppc750> change /hit/shit/ 03:32 < ppc750> :) 03:33 < HEMI> "I can't replace an SSL cert with another one for the same FQDN." "Why don't you just sign your own?" "...Cause I want to not have to set up my own CA, make sure everyone has my CA public key, etc." "Really, you should just sign your own! We make it easy!" 03:33 -!- iMorpheus [n=iMorpheu@EM119-72-11-126.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [] 03:33 -!- Psy| [n=Psy|@LAubervilliers-153-51-26-213.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##mac 03:34 < NeonMonk> HEMI speaks the truth 03:34 < penguincentral> HEMI: oh dear, that's bad 03:34 < HEMI> 5) (personal gripe) the user base is small. If *I* am encountering unique problems that frustrate me, and this isn't exactly my first ride at the rodeo as far as being a professional sysadmin goes, I can't imagine how bad it is for the people that just get handed a machine and go, "okay, here's your new server!" 03:34 * penguincentral was right to ask the people in the know first :) 03:34 < HEMI> Note that even the _hard-core_ Mac fanbois hate OS X Server. 03:34 < penguincentral> HEMI: fair enough 03:34 < odb|fidel> =) 03:35 < NeonMonk> if you refuse to use windows... go IBM 03:35 < penguincentral> i may as well run a linux server 03:35 < penguincentral> but i really wanted to work with mac hardware 03:35 < HEMI> Also note that Apple obviously doesn't use/test it internally, otherwise they would have discovered a lot of these bugs (like the ClamAV-crashing and the PHP-breaking-squirrelmail bugs) before they ever went to the customers. 03:35 < thewizzard> if you're going to run linux, i'd check out Zimbra for mail/calendar 03:35 < HEMI> penguincentral: the hardware is on-par with other low-end x86 server vendors. 03:35 < HEMI> It's nothing special. 03:35 < NeonMonk> http://www-304.ibm.com/jct03004c/businesscenter/smallbusiness/us/en/servers/ 03:36 < HEMI> The ONLY nice hardware bit is the drive sleds work well, but from what I've heard tend to fail at a higher rate than other drive sleds. 03:36 < penguincentral> HEMI: i get the idea. I'd be better off running a linux server 03:37 < HEMI> We got our Intel XServe and my boss was THRILLED! "Look, redundant power supplies! LOM! A non-crazy rack kit!" I didn't want to bust his bubble and tell him that IBM had been doing most of that stuff for _ten years_. 03:37 -!- thelostpatrol [n=none@CPE00179a35b29d-CM001ac35df5a2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 03:37 < HEMI> The G4 XServes, hardware-wise, were awful. No redundant power, no LOM, a rack kit that made me want to take a salad fork to my face, etc...The G5 ones were slightly better and the Intel ones are, like I said before, on par with other low-end x86 hardware vendors' 1U offerings...But nothing special. 03:38 < NeonMonk> I love IBM servers 03:38 * HEMI *heart* IBM. 03:38 < HEMI> I like IBM in general. 03:38 < HEMI> They've made a lot of smart moves. 03:38 < HEMI> Divesting themselves of their end-user hardware business was brilliant. 03:38 < ppc750> have you seen this --> http://terrasoftsolutions.com/products/powerstation/ 03:39 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined ##mac 03:39 < NeonMonk> it sure was 03:39 < ppc750> it's wonderful. DO WANT 03:39 < HEMI> IBM does an absolutely awesome job of listening to what their customers want...Then giving them what they want. 03:39 < NeonMonk> penguincentral: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/jsp/express/x/tower.jsp 03:39 * penguincentral then goes for IBM 03:40 < penguincentral> thanks for ur help guys :) 03:40 < HEMI> penguincentral: I'd suggest FreeBSD over Linux, but others will disagree. 03:40 < penguincentral> HEMI: yeah 03:40 < NeonMonk> I agree 03:40 < NeonMonk> however 03:40 * penguincentral comes from a linux background 03:40 < penguincentral> so it would suit me a bit more 03:40 < NeonMonk> if you want support you're better off going with an established Linux vendor 03:40 -!- terrancekennedy [n=terrance@ip72-197-78-253.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40 * penguincentral laughs at NeonMonk 03:40 < HEMI> In closing, I'd just like to say that OS X Server has been the bane of my professional existence for 2.5 years now. It's so bad I will actively suppress that I know anything about OS X next time I'm in the job market. :) 03:40 < NeonMonk> :) 03:40 < HEMI> I came from a Linux background, too. 03:40 < penguincentral> :) 03:41 < NeonMonk> just saying, some people like having someone they can blame 03:41 < HEMI> But I found something that works better for me. 03:41 < ppc750> OS X Server was released much before Mac OS X public beta 03:41 < ppc750> it was the reason why I've tried it 03:41 < NeonMonk> OS X Server could be a decent product 03:41 -!- terrancekennedy [n=terrance@ip72-197-78-253.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##mac 03:41 < NeonMonk> but it's about 5 years of hardwork on Apple's behalf away from that 03:41 < NeonMonk> and they're not interested 03:41 < NeonMonk> at all. 03:41 < HEMI> I could go on to horror stories of the Mac cluster at UIUC's NCSA...You know, the second-largest Mac cluster IN THE WORLD? 03:42 < HEMI> I know the guys that run it. 03:42 < HEMI> Both of them *were* hard-core Mac guys. 03:42 < HEMI> Now they absolutely _loathe_ Apple. 03:42 < HEMI> OS X Server *could* be decent. 03:42 < NeonMonk> definitely 03:42 < HEMI> But it won't be. 03:42 < NeonMonk> definitely. 03:42 < NeonMonk> unless of course Apple replace Jobs with someone from IBM 03:43 * NeonMonk laughs at the thought 03:43 < HEMI> haha 03:43 * ppc750 liked Apple before that fukken switch 03:43 < HEMI> It's not a hardware problem, though. 03:43 < HEMI> My hatred comes from the software side. 03:43 -!- Radar [n=ryanbigg@ppp240-115.static.internode.on.net] has joined ##mac 03:43 < NeonMonk> well the real problem is that Apple aren't interested 03:43 < HEMI> Oh, okay, I have to go in to this, though...Cause this is both a hardware/software problem... 03:43 -!- Radar [n=ryanbigg@ppp240-115.static.internode.on.net] has left ##mac [] 03:44 < HEMI> The Mac cluster at UIUC uses a whole pile of XServes...G4 or G5, I forget which. 03:44 < NeonMonk> they've made something decent enough for casual Mac yuppies to use with their home network 03:44 < ppc750> HEMI -- forget OS X Server, what's more don't you like in Apple's softeare?