(17:19:02) theBohemian: hi all
(17:19:10) theBohemian: please comment: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3C50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F%40apache.org%3E
17:19:34) dalibor: yes, that's my name up there
(17:19:47) dalibor: here is what happened:
(17:20:06) dalibor: the ASF has been seeing that Classpath is getting quite useable for a while now.
(17:20:48) dalibor: since their original plan to see a code drop from some big $corporation into ASF's hands for maintenace just didn't happen in the last 10 years, or so
(17:20:58) dalibor: they eventually started thinking aout writing their own VM.
(17:22:04) dalibor: the good experience on buildig bridges with the classpath devs helped them orient themselves towards us, and picking up the editors and writing the darn code, rather than waiting for stuff to happen in this particular area.
(17:22:27) mjw [~mark@wildebeest.demon.nl] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:22:28) dalibor: alas, during my stay in brasil, I talked a lot with geirm about VM design, and how well designed classpath is
(17:22:49) pinskia: hi mjw 
(17:23:09) wasabi: Well this is interesting.
(17:23:11) dalibor: and I also explained where I want to see Kaffe going and the work happening with gcj bindings eventually ending up in classpath core, and so on.
(17:23:15) wasabi: I just read the /. thing too
(17:23:30) pinskia: mjw: we are talking about the apache announcement
(17:23:36) dalibor: essentially, in the medium term, it would be cool to turn Kaffe into a componentized VM
(17:23:45) dalibor: of pluggable bits and pieces.
(17:24:01) dalibor: thanks to guilhem[away], some parts of that already are starting to work pretty well.
(17:24:04) theBohemian: hi mjw
(17:24:16) wasabi: How does this overlap with both kaffe nad gcj?
(17:24:27) wasabi: Since both are actually coming along quite nicely it seems.
(17:24:45) dalibor: and to have the interfaces for that work be part of classpath, so that all classpath vms can feed off each other, modulo licensing constraints, if any.
(17:25:14) theBohemian: dalibor: is harmony a vm or a class library? I thought it was the later one ...
(17:25:21) dalibor: which is also one of the major reasons to get that darn ASL/(L)GPL thing sorted out.
(17:25:41) julian37 [~julian@pD950BBA8.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:26:06) dalibor: and the harmony project gives the apache foundation (inparticular the people we have already worked with) a good handle to have a practical example why license compatblity would be areally, really good thing right now, rather than in 5 years ;)
(17:27:32) mjw: Hi.
(17:28:06) mjw: I probably won't have time or be online much more for this during the weekend.
(17:28:24) mjw: So I am hoping that dalibor and tromey could send some nice comments their way.
(17:28:44) mjw: I am still a bit miffed about not coordinating this announcement beforehand.
(17:28:51) mjw: But I am trying to be a good sport about it.
(17:28:52) dalibor: alas, i talked a bit with geir from apache, and flavio bergamaschi, from IBM, in brasil, and geir continued the discussion in the last two weeks using the apache-specific contacts to get more people from non-free runtimes on board, as they seem to be interested in a pluggable interface infrastructure.
(17:29:12) dalibor: for whatever reason, asf cares about their industry contacts ;)
(17:29:53) dalibor: so seeing where we are going to end up with classpath anyway (total world domination), the asf would also like to help get things going along.
(17:30:04) mjw: I don't know if the harmony mailinglist are archived. But the general list with some of my comments is:
(17:30:06) mjw: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200505.mbox/index.html
(17:30:23) dalibor: unfortuntaely, geir botched the announcement.
(17:30:30) dalibor: i.e. he didn'T talk to me or mark about it.
(17:30:43) dalibor: i think we were both a bit surprised.
(17:30:51) mjw: I was!
(17:31:01) mjw: OK. see the other mailinglist is also archived:
(17:31:03) mjw: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/index.html
(17:31:07) mjw: Have fun with it.
(17:31:24) mjw: And when you find out what "Harmony" really is let me know and celebrate :)
(17:31:30) dalibor: my idea is to help the ASF avoid making my mistakes on kaffe and just adopting classpath from the start, and adopting the way we do stuff.
(17:31:44) pinskia: mjw: heh
(17:31:56) mjw: My idea is to just get the ASL/GPL thing fixed and get on with life.
(17:32:01) mjw hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "living!").
(17:32:08) dalibor: but the asf is not a kind of a funky easy going maintainerish project, they have rules, prcedures, and a concept that revolves around consens.
(17:32:46) dalibor: which means the asf first needs to go through a soul searching phase where the asf figures what they want to do, then they figure out how to do it, and hen they eventually set out to do it.
(17:33:53) dalibor: all of that is probably going to involve some internal debate on license and all that, and eventually going to work to speed ASF's collaboration with the FSF up, given a real use case.
(17:34:31) pinskia: I also don't see why they think they have a name, unlike GCC
(17:34:49) dalibor: but yeah, so far there is nothing.
(17:35:02) dalibor: just a platform for ASF-ish discussion.
(17:36:12) dalibor: and obviously, as long asthere is no code, it can hardly compete with gcj/kaffe/jamvm/whatever ;)
(17:37:05) dalibor: if the VM cmponent interface thing works out within gnu classpath and the asf adopts that for their runtime, than that's certainly going to be a very interesting development.
(17:37:51) dalibor: they are probably going to do something sane, like use classpath, or try to adopt a VM.
(17:38:16) dalibor: whichever they end up doing, though, is something that they need to discuss internally first.
(17:38:45) dalibor: that's about it, afaict.
(17:39:08) dalibor: they didn't say use kaffe or gcj, as they want to have a discussion first.
(17:39:31) dalibor: though some pretty reasonable people are arguing for using kaffe or gcj as the basis for the effort.
(17:40:36) dalibor: ok, done talking.
(17:40:40) dalibor: questions?
(17:41:33) Sven_M [~sven@qcplx01.physto.se] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:41:36) pinskia: hi Sven_M 
(17:41:38) dalibor: yo Sven_M
(17:41:42) Sven_M: hello pinskia, dalibor
(17:41:50) Sven_M: (and others)
(17:41:50) theBohemian: dalibor: "a class library under the Apache License compatible with    the J2SE 5 specification that implements the defined interfaces"
(17:41:53) theBohemian: ?
(17:42:05) theBohemian: looks like trouble to me ...
(17:43:49) kahmalo: dalibor: what part of GNU Classpath do you consider particularly well designed (as opposed to just following Sun's design)?  I'd like to see the code.
(17:44:19) Sven_M: kahmalo: I'll answer that: Everything I implemented ;-)
(17:44:40) kahmalo: Sven_M: ok, I'll scan the changelogs then.
(17:44:49) avdyk: dalibor: good talk
(17:44:51) avdyk: ;-)
(17:45:33) pinskia: Sven_M: heh
(17:45:59) muonix hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
(17:46:57) Sven_M: kahmalo: Seriously though, if I'd have to point out one thing I've worked on, I'd point out our awt.color implementation. It's about 10x faster than Sun's on the most common color spaces (for instance sRGB), uses less memory and is more accurate.
(17:47:34) Sven_M: This is more due to Sun's implementation being really bad though :)
(17:49:36) pinskia: :)
(17:50:34) gnu_andrewh: Compilers, VMs and the class library aren't as closely bound together when working with a Classpath-derived project such as gcj or Kaffe, as opposed to something like Sun's JDK.
(17:50:46) kahmalo: Sven_M: What a coincidence.  At <http://www.biochem.oulu.fi/~oniemita/dye/dyemixer/> my brother complains that Sun's XYZ to RGB conversion produces incorrect results.  Do you think he is right?
(17:50:50) dalibor: avdyk: thanks ;)
(17:51:19) avdyk: dalibor: do you think we'll heard something about that in a near future?
(17:51:56) dalibor: theBohemian: well... that the proposal. if they find noone wanting to do that, or someone like is able to elaborate why writing one's own class library without explicit need is a dumb idea ... yeah ;)
(17:52:13) dalibor: there is certainly room for discussion on the apache lists.
(17:52:25) dalibor: but let's first see where it's heading.
(17:52:28) k4m3 [~rrr@218.1.81.41] hat den Raum betreten.
(17:52:42) dalibor: though i should announce kaffe's 1.1.5 release on slashdot.
(17:53:29) dalibor: 'from harmony masterminds, the disharmonic, evil borg machine of the future in a release from the past'
(17:53:33) dalibor: or something.
(17:53:38) dalibor: ;)
(17:53:47) dalibor: moin k4m3
(17:53:53) k4m3: lo
(17:53:59) pinskia: classpath 0.15 should have been announced on slashdot really
(17:54:13) Sven_M: kahmalo: Yeah, he is correct there. Java uses D50 and not D65 as the white-point.
(17:54:34) Sven_M: Although I'm not sure I'd call that a bug in itself.
(17:54:48) dalibor: kahmalo: core lang libs, including io and converters are pretty nice, really.
(17:55:29) dalibor: in particular the VM interfaces are a great device to both enable and encourage portability, and keep the necessary differences in implementation to a minimum.
(17:55:34) kahmalo: Sven_M: Do you mean it's actually documented?
(17:55:51) dalibor: i have no knowledge of Sun's source, though, so I have no idea how well that compares.
(17:56:08) Sven_M: kahmalo: Yeah, the Sun docs do state that they use D50. And also tell you how to convert. (although through linear scaling, which is a bad method.) The more serious things are that java still gives pretty lousy accuracy on the transformation, (try converting sRGB->XYZ->sRGB and see what happens!)
(17:56:38) Sven_M: Also java clips the sRGB values to the 0-1.0 range, despite the sRGB standard clearly saying that they're allowed to be outside that.
(17:56:55) pinskia: :)
(17:57:19) pinskia: Sven_M: the Java docs say they clip or does Sun just do it?
(17:57:47) Sven_M: pinskia: No, Sun just does it. I left that 'feature' out though. Cairo plans to support sRGB outside the 0-1 range. :)
(17:58:55) pinskia: sounds like someone at Sun has their head on backwards
(18:00:27) Sven_M: pinskia: Yeah.. The idea was good though. The API and implementation just suck :)
(18:01:59) Sven_M: dalibor: I already submitted that story 3 times :)
(18:02:46) pinskia: Sven_M: which one, new kaffe being released 
(18:03:02) pinskia: Sven_M: /. sucks when it comes about from developers
(18:03:08) Sven_M: pinskia: Yeah, the Kaffe story.. I tried different angles, but they didn't work. ;-)
(18:03:30) Sven_M: "No SCO code in Kaffe 1.1.5"
(18:03:37) Sven_M: ;-)
(18:03:39) pinskia: :)
(18:03:58) Sven_M: Actually, I didn't try that. It'd probably have worked. :)
(18:04:08) pinskia: Sven_M: you should say no SCO or Sun code in kaffe 1.1.5 :)
(18:07:40) Sven_M: pinskia: But there is Sun code in Kaffe ;-)
(18:08:50) Sven_M: Same as in Classpath, java.lang.StrictMath: "Copyright (C) 1993 by Sun Microsystems" ;-)
(18:09:01) pinskia: oh, yes that
(18:09:22) Sven_M: No Sun *java* code of course :)
(18:09:59) pinskia: well lunch time
(18:10:02) Sven_M: dalibor: So how's Harmony going to work? Are they going to use our code or what?
(18:10:17) dalibor: Sven_M: i will make em ;)
(18:10:48) Sven_M: dalibor: It'd sure seem stupid if they don't.
(18:11:09) dalibor: more seriously, though, my role is to make folks clear that it won't work well without classpath
(18:11:26) dalibor: and to explain them to avoid the mistakes we made in the early years.
(18:11:47) dalibor: and to bind them, and all that.
(18:11:49) dalibor: ;)
(18:12:34) Sven_M: dalibor: We've got a million lines of code. Why the fsck should the duplicate all that just because of NIH?
(18:14:03) dalibor: precisely.
(18:14:36) Sven_M: dalibor: Scary thing is, it'd be just like the Apache guys to do that :)
(18:14:39) dalibor: and hey, my classpath advertising works so well, that even the ASF wants to do a VM ;)
(18:15:25) Sven_M: dalibor: Still, interesting set of Slashdot comments. Seems people are becoming more aware of us.
(18:15:28) dalibor hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Excess Flood).
(18:15:51) dalibor [~topic@pD95165E1.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(18:16:12) Sven_M: I've now seen two comments this week on Slashdot mentioning how great JamVM is.. Weird :)
(18:18:24) guilhem[away] heißt nun guilhem
(18:18:57) dalibor: Sven_M: yeah ;)
(18:20:51) Sven_M: dalibor: OTOH it's 200kb and has got hand optimized assembly language in it. That's the kind of stuff that appeals to the /. crowd.
(18:21:20) theBohemian: dalibor: how problematic is it for the ASF to accept a more liberal copylefted license as the base for additions? 
(18:21:41) theBohemian: or isnt that the problem at all?!?
(18:37:03) pinskia: back from lunch
(18:40:48) dalibor: theBohemian: no idea, really.
(18:41:12) dalibor: they seem to have different fractions, and one of them is not really well informed ;)
(18:41:36) dalibor: i.e. assumes that classpath is under exceptionless GPL.
(18:41:46) dalibor: so there is some education to do. ;)
(18:42:15) dalibor: the ASF has a lot of members in more weirder circles where kaffe & gcj didn't have much penetration yet.
(18:42:17) Sven_M: We're the Apache People's Foundation! "I thought we were the Popular foundation?" 
(18:42:23) dalibor: hehe
(18:42:52) dalibor: which means they will have to inform themselves, and figure out who, what why and how they want to get this done.
(18:43:16) pinskia: dalibor: GCC has more than apache really :)
(18:44:31) pinskia: and GCC is longer history too
(18:44:35) theBohemian: dalibor: anyway. seems like a good move to bring ASF and FSF closer together :)
(18:45:48) theBohemian: "I had a long one with Dalibor and Simon Phipps in Brazil - the only solution we could come up with the resolve things was to eat more of the excellent beef they serve there."
(18:45:48) theBohemian: lol :)
(18:46:12) dalibor: pinskia: obviously ;)
(18:46:26) pinskia: which is why GCJ is a good thing
(18:51:26) Sven_M: Gotta go, bye!
(18:51:28) Sven_M hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Client exiting").
(18:52:31) ***dalibor agrees with pinskia
(18:53:06) dalibor: there are quite a few options, and writing everything from scratch, which is probably some 2-3 million lines of code is not that exciting.
(18:53:35) dalibor: it would take ~5 years to get just the VM up to world class, not to mention the class libs.
(18:53:48) dalibor: s/world/some
(18:54:03) dalibor: see mono, kaffe, and others.
(18:57:06) dog_ [~dog@82-69-92-124.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:03:14) ***avdyk is away: gonne eat! ;P
(19:05:26) nadav_: ximian was able to bring mono up and running within a year or so
(19:06:24) wasabi: What's wrong with our existing VMs?
(19:07:17) dalibor: nadav_: kaffe was brought up and running with a jit within two months.
(19:07:32) dalibor: that does not mean it was more that a proof of concept,though ;)
(19:07:50) dalibor: it takes years to get it right, useable and useful.
(19:08:21) dalibor: wasabi: nothing, they just need to figure out whether adopting a VM is a right thing to do, for them.
(19:08:49) nadav_: It seems to me that the problem is the classpath and not the jvm at the moment
(19:11:06) dalibor: yes.
(19:11:16) dalibor: jvms are kind of easy, and kind of hard.
(19:11:32) dalibor: writing a simple interpreter can be done rather fast.
(19:11:58) dalibor: as in really really simple, and leaving all the hard stuff out like verification, reflection, references, you name it.
(19:12:08) dalibor: just for hello-world-ish code.
(19:12:15) pinskia: look jamvm for something which was done very fast really
(19:12:32) dalibor: yep, but jamvm is really nice per definition anyway ;)
(19:15:20) nadav_: away
(19:19:48) dalibor: see you nadav_
(19:30:22) tromey: hi all
(19:30:53) tromey: I see that Harmony is the topic of the day
(19:32:27) dalibor: all the frigging day long.
(19:32:51) dalibor: i've phones with geir today, even.
(19:32:58) dalibor: and got a phone call from phipps.
(19:33:19) dalibor: i expect MTV to call in any minute.
(19:33:21) dalibor: ;)
(19:34:57) tromey: phone calls, wow
(19:35:27) dalibor: i hoped to do some hacking, but I guess I should have simply written a huge blog entry instead.
(19:35:55) geirm [~geir@ool-43560634.dyn.optonline.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:36:50) dalibor: heya geirm ;)
(19:37:01) geirm: heya!
(19:37:06) tromey: yeah, I will probably write a blog entry about it all this evening
(19:37:12) tromey: this afternoon I plan a long hike
(19:38:59) tromey: I wonder where to start
(19:39:07) geirm: uh oh - anything wrong?
(19:39:08) tromey: most of these posts seem too detail oriented
(19:39:10) tromey: no
(19:39:13) dalibor: tromey:  http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kgh/archive/2005/05/thoughts_on_the.html 
(19:39:48) dalibor: the asf-is-cuddly-we-know-how-to-handle-nice-people hookline works ;)
(19:40:05) theBohemian: seen that: http://www.fsf.org/news/open-office-java.html ?
(19:40:31) dalibor: nope.
(19:40:44) dalibor: I guess caolan would know.
(19:41:38) theBohemian: I hope this efforts make ooo more classpath compatible not by throwing out java completely ...
(19:42:15) theBohemian: I heard rms does not use graphical internet. is that still true?
(19:42:28) tromey: probably.  not sure though
(19:42:43) tromey: there's no point to that fsf page
(19:42:46) tromey: IMO
(19:42:55) tromey: Caolan is already on this :-)
(19:43:20) theBohemian: tromey: good to hear this. 
(19:43:29) tromey: wow, harmony got a javaone slot
(19:43:36) tromey: I'm jealous.  they rejected my free vm talk
(19:44:48) pinskia: weird
(19:45:30) tromey: they probably didn't like my title:  "Class(path) Struggle"  :-)
(19:45:36) pinskia: :)
(19:45:37) dalibor: hehe
(19:46:17) dims [~dims@209.237.227.198] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:46:45) pinskia: I think Sun likes apache and nobody else
(19:46:52) pinskia: well sun needs a clue
(19:47:22) dims: why do u say that pinskia?
(19:47:43) pinskia: http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kgh/archive/2005/05/thoughts_on_the.html
(19:47:48) dog_: apache lets them use apache code in non-free j2se
(19:48:56) geirm: we let who use what?
(19:49:02) cbj [~cbj@cpe-024-211-210-200.nc.res.rr.com] hat den Raum betreten.
(19:49:06) dims: xerces, xalan, etc?
(19:49:08) cbj: Hey guys
(19:49:16) geirm: we don't care what people use our stuff for
(19:49:51) dims: hi geir
(19:50:19) geirm: dims!  howdy
(19:50:23) geirm: welcome to the jungle...
(19:50:34) geirm: (not here on #classpath, but in general...)
(19:52:09) dog_: geirm: you let sun distribute apache code in j2se under a non-free licence
(19:52:13) dog_: dims: yes
(19:52:37) geirm: yes, we do that because our license allows that
(19:53:34) cbj: So, I've missed something.  Anyone want to explain Harmony?
(19:53:54) theBohemian: hehe you have its initiator here :)
(19:54:08) k4m3: ebony, ivory, live in perfect harmony
(19:54:42) theBohemian: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200505.mbox/threads.html
(19:55:47) dalibor: haha
(19:56:47) gnu_andrewh: that FSF page seems a little odd; my grasp was that Classpath was largely working with OO.o 2 or getting there at least.
(19:56:50) guilhem heißt nun guilhem[dinner]
(19:58:01) theBohemian: geirm: what do you think about the "GPL + linking exception" in classpath. will that be acceptable for you/ASF?
(19:58:02) dog_: cbj: harmony is classpath under asl v2
(19:58:29) theBohemian: dog_: I dont think this is the last word on this ...
(19:58:31) dalibor: cbj: http://rafb.net/paste/results/twPYJI90.html
(19:58:45) theBohemian: dog_: however I was a bit puzzled by the announcement too
(19:59:18) tromey: GPL+exception ought to be acceptable
(19:59:24) tromey: it is the license used by libgcc
(19:59:29) tromey: which every program compiled by gcc uses
(19:59:38) pinskia: and libstdc++
(19:59:48) tromey: so, if it is not apl compatible, then you can't compile apache with gcc
(19:59:50) pinskia: and libgfortran
(20:00:43) theBohemian: tromey: well, but this does not answer the question whether ASF guys will be motivated to back classpath's development ...
(20:00:47) geirm: theBohemian: one sec - washer repair guy just showed up
(20:01:14) dog_: tromey: why can't you compile apache with gcc? compiling != linking
(20:01:57) theBohemian: tromey: I remember the irritations that came up when we discussed mx4j to be used as classpath's default jmx provider .. :(
(20:02:00) tromey: you can, that's my point
(20:02:34) tromey: and yeah, there are folks who replace libgcc
(20:02:37) tromey: but, eg, Debian does not
(20:03:41) cbj: dalibor: thanks for clarification, the slashdot post has freaked a few people out
(20:04:01) cbj hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/").
(20:04:41) cbj [~cbj@cpe-024-211-210-200.nc.res.rr.com] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:04:54) cbj: ahh, stupid close window :)
(20:05:32) pinskia: :)
(20:06:07) dalibor: cbj: no problem.
(20:06:13) dalibor: I'll make sure I blog about it soon.
(20:06:16) dog_: i can't say i'm very enthusiastic about this, i don't see how it helps free software
(20:06:26) dog_: i think it's just going to confuse matters
(20:06:35) dalibor: i've just spent the whole day cleaning up after geirm'S fucked up anouncement ;)
(20:06:44) geirm: oh, <sob>
(20:06:46) dims: dalibor: sorry
(20:07:04) dalibor: no problem, i'm used to ASF and FSF miscommunicating ;)
(20:07:08) cbj: it may help with the certain segment (huge huge segment) of the java community that only likes to bless Apache as free software
(20:07:28) dalibor: yeah
(20:07:49) dog_: cbj: what, by getting them to think that classpath is an apache project too?
(20:07:54) ***k4m3 is waiting for Hani Suleiman's post
(20:08:20) dalibor: k4m3: just chatting with him ;)
(20:08:54) ***dog_ is going to go away and put his head in the freezer for a bit
(20:08:55) dalibor: i'm looking forward to being ridiculed and my dick siye being taken as the measure of things to come.
(20:09:06) dog_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: ).
(20:09:11) tromey: oh, too bad
(20:09:17) tromey: I was going to explain how it might help
(20:09:31) dims: dalibor: thanks for fighting the fires :)
(20:09:47) dalibor: dims: hey, I've got debian-legal experience.
(20:10:01) dalibor: that's solar-flare-asbestos
(20:10:03) k4m3: dalibor: it's going to be a genitalia feast
(20:10:08) dalibor: i bet.
(20:11:59) cbj: tromey: wouldn't hurt to explain things in a news posting or something on classpath list/project?
(20:12:54) ***pinskia should sign up to the classpath list
(20:13:36) dalibor: yeah.
(20:13:45) cbj: where's mark today?
(20:13:45) ***dims trying guilhem's latest patches on brutus
(20:13:55) ***dims oops wrong channel
(20:14:24) dalibor: but i think that would be best to have geir send a mail over to classpath list explainaing how the ASF works, the decision process etc.
(20:14:28) tromey: mjw said he wouldn't be around much this weekend
(20:14:51) dalibor: and elaborate a bit on why the ASF does not immediately say endorse classpath or some such.
(20:15:05) dalibor: that probably caused the most confusion.
(20:15:22) rao [~rao@64.81.70.191] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:15:29) dalibor: it all boils down to a slightly different culture, I guess
(20:15:33) dalibor: hi rao!
(20:15:51) rao: hey all
(20:15:55) dalibor: geirm: there, you got all the cool classpath hackers out of the woods with that announcement.
(20:16:04) dalibor: that's what I mean ;)
(20:16:32) cbj: i can retreat to my cave again if you wish
(20:16:35) ***dalibor stopes joking ;)
(20:16:38) dalibor: no please!
(20:16:41) dalibor: no no
(20:16:49) dalibor: i am just joking, really.
(20:17:05) cbj: rao: dalibor and tromey here can explain it
(20:17:12) dalibor: it's good to see people checking up whether I am on crack.
(20:17:17) dims: dalibor: did u see this? (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3c427CE3C8.9050203@apache.org%3e)
(20:17:27) rao: the announcement seems terribly confusing
(20:17:31) dalibor: rao:  yes.
(20:17:43) rao: 'let's throw away all this code!'
(20:17:57) dims: rao: where does it say that?
(20:18:04) dalibor: it wasn't synchronized with mjw or me, afaik, and I think geirm underestimated the reach a bit
(20:18:16) rao: dims: starting from scratch, implies throwing away all the code. :)
(20:18:20) tromey: ok, one more detail message and I'm out of here.  I hope to write a bigger, more thematic type thing later
(20:18:21) dalibor: rao: just a second
(20:18:43) dalibor: rao: http://rafb.net/paste/results/twPYJI90.html
(20:18:52) dalibor: so that I don't have to retype it all the time
(20:19:14) dims: rao: i search for scratch - no hits ...
(20:19:46) k4m3: at least the point 13 from the FAQ brightens the sky
(20:20:18) dims: yep...that's why we did the FAQ :)
(20:20:35) dims: intention is to join the classpath eco system.
(20:20:43) cbj: dims: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=butt+itch&btnG=Search
(20:20:55) k4m3: eco the dolphin ? it's going to clash with mysql logo :-)
(20:20:57) rao: dims: question 10 at http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-harmony-dev/200505.mbox/%3C50351021-6408-437D-949A-7AF2AD4DFD0F@apache.org%3E
(20:21:09) rao: dims: and there's question 9 which says it will take a long time :)
(20:21:29) dims: cbj: :)
(20:22:05) dims: rao: it means currently in Apache CVS/SVN
(20:22:13) rao: dims: so no code + long time = not understanding :)
(20:22:14) tromey: yeah, it is funny they are targeting 1.5
(20:22:16) tromey: I thought about this last night
(20:22:30) tromey: since without a major code infusion there is no way to finish before 1.6, IMO
(20:23:28) dalibor: hmm ... microsoft? 
(20:23:30) dalibor: ;)
(20:23:39) ***dalibor snickers evilly
(20:23:42) dims: tromey: a proposal is just a starting point for discussion...nothing more. it assures that a cvs/svn area is setup and mailing lists are set up for people to collaborate :)
(20:24:38) dims: we did not want to do this in smoke filled back rooms begging people for their code bases and the blessing one of them :)
(20:24:57) dims: so start with a clean slate, work with the best guys on the planet (you all :)
(20:26:48) dims: FWIW, am right now running J2EE TCK for Geronimo on one box and trying to replicate the Kaffe failure on another box :)
(20:27:13) dims: dreaded bootstrap-ant failure
(20:27:41) dalibor: thanks dims!
(20:28:04) dims: np at all.
(20:30:42) cbj: btw, we would have used NPR or APR earlier but for the really stupid license problems, so hope it all gets fixed
(20:31:17) dims: hani at his best :)
(20:31:45) cbj: thanks guys i'm out, it's a really nice day
(20:31:49) k4m3: genitalia and excrements, everything is in place :-)
(20:32:16) cbj hat den Raum verlassen.
(20:32:27) geirm hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(20:34:26) rao: breakfast time here.  thanks for the additional info / urls.
(20:34:57) rao hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Leaving").
(20:35:38) geirm [~geir@ool-43560634.dyn.optonline.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(20:37:41) theBohemian: wow this guy (http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20050507#death_to_apache) is really nuts :)
(20:38:33) theBohemian: its the first seeing the apache guys dismissed as zealots. I thought this was our (GNU) profession ;)
(20:38:46) dims: theBohemian: it's his usual style, no holds barred, no prisoners taken :)
(20:39:13) theBohemian: these guys are really needed.
(20:39:33) theBohemian: they bring people together :)
(20:40:01) tromey: that "death to apache" post ... hahaha.  like, who needs friends?
(20:40:03) ***avdyk is back (gone 01:36:48)
(20:40:55) gnu_andrewh: theBohemian: Yes, every one can unite over what a nutter he is...
(20:42:30) dims: yep, over on the asf channel
(20:42:32) dims: [14:37] <NoelJB> well, I'll say this for the foul-mouthed idiot savant of the blogger world: he managed to insult equally everyone from the ASF and Incubator to the FSF, Kaffe, Classpath, IBM, Sun, BEA, JBoss, Geronimo, ...
(20:42:38) dims: :)
(20:43:23) wasabi: heh.
(20:43:31) wasabi: i am really fond of the idea of making classpath 100% good and using ikvm. ;0
(20:44:09) gnu_andrewh: At least it's now clear who Microsoft's audience is...
(20:44:32) tromey: my understanding is that ikvm requires some hacks in some places to get java semantics
(20:44:47) theBohemian: gnu_andrew: thats what I meant. 
(20:44:58) tromey: so a "real" vm is likely to be better in some way
(20:45:11) wasabi: tromey, im really curious what hacks
(20:45:15) wasabi: you have alink or anything?
(20:45:20) tromey: not offhand
(20:45:38) tromey: they may not be major hacks, I'm not sure
(20:46:20) wasabi: ikvm is so tempting isn't it
(20:46:28) tromey: what about jikesrvm?
(20:46:55) wasabi: like, somebody is working on runtime code reoptimization in mono right now.
(20:46:59) wasabi: hotspot style
(20:47:08) tromey: but a lot depends on goals.  if your goal is complete configurability, then neither jikesrvm nor ikvm is right
(20:47:11) tromey: jikesrvm already has that
(20:48:01) wasabi: shows how much i know eh
(20:48:17) dalibor: wasabi: see latte
(20:48:37) dalibor: whatever mono does it has alrady been done on a kaffe fork before, usually ;)
(20:48:40) tromey: llvm also has some cool properties
(20:48:51) tromey: as in, mix and match AOT and JIT compilation
(20:49:45) theBohemian: some days ago there was this guy who sued the fsf, now this 'friend'. is there a disease someone can get by sitting to long in front of a computer screen or what?
(20:50:04) tromey: some folks have poor emotional skills, alas
(20:50:08) dalibor: haha
(20:50:27) dalibor: the guy is actually quite friendly on irc
(20:50:34) dalibor: just a bit odd on blogs.
(20:50:51) dalibor: i suggested to him to use a photoblog instead
(20:50:58) dalibor: but he is not into that
(20:51:08) tromey: a nice way of saying "shut up" :-)
(20:51:51) dalibor: i also suggested to check out some ICTY court proceedings for some read hardcore genocidal sadist homophobic crap, but he doesn't seem to be into it.
(20:52:12) dalibor: some of that concentration camp shit is really fugly.
(20:52:30) dalibor: alas, he pussies out on that.
(20:52:32) dalibor: ;)
(20:53:14) dalibor: well, ok, I told him i come from serbia,that might have contributed to the silencing effect, what do i know.
(20:53:52) tromey: that is, like, insane overkill
(20:53:58) dalibor: (yes, i had graydon for a visit yesterday and we mostly talked about balkanese genocidal hostory)
(20:54:37) dalibor: (so graydon coined a new debate-winnig phrase for me: I've been there, that just leads to genocide)
(20:54:50) tromey: hahaha
(20:55:45) dalibor: ;)
(20:56:06) tromey: ok, time to go hike the mountain.  I'll try to send "the case for classpath" later
(20:56:13) dalibor: see you later, mate
(20:56:14) tromey: or perhaps it ought to be "the case for doing nothing" :-)
(20:56:15) tromey: ciao
(20:56:18) dalibor: haha
(20:59:09) nadav_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(21:09:49) webmink [~webmink@81-86-155-12.dsl.pipex.com] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:10:25) k4m3 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "sleeeeeeeeeeep").
(21:10:55) dalibor: hi webmink
(21:11:03) webmink: Hi Dalibor
(21:11:14) webmink: Seen Graham Hamilton's blog?
(21:11:28) dalibor: no mails yet, just spent the day talking about the harmny thing ;)
(21:11:31) dalibor: yeah
(21:11:32) tashiro_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(21:11:32) dalibor: neat.
(21:11:58) dalibor: blew hanni a bit away, when I showed him the link.
(21:12:13) webmink: :-)
(21:12:29) dalibor: so his bile is not as punchy as I hope it to be.
(21:12:31) webmink: So that's to +1s from Sun ;-)
(21:12:37) dalibor: thanks
(21:12:46) dalibor: good work there
(21:12:51) webmink: teamwork
(21:12:57) webmink: Tell no-one ;-)
(21:13:18) dalibor: i hope we can get things worked in a way so that we can go through the TCK as a cross-runtime effort.
(21:13:34) dalibor: but first things first ;)
(21:14:00) dalibor: so got your blog on it up yet? ;)
(21:14:06) webmink: Oh, yes
(21:14:16) webmink: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/webmink/20050507#harmony_tunes_up
(21:14:23) webmink: I posted before Graham
(21:17:19) dalibor: nice
(21:17:32) nadav_ [~nadav@bzq-218-227-235.red.bezeqint.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:18:35) webmink: You mean you don't subscribe?
(21:18:44) ***webmink is shocked
(21:20:28) dalibor: subscribe?
(21:20:30) dalibor: rss?
(21:20:53) dalibor: aeh ... i'm old skool, IRC is bad enough as a detraction.
(21:20:55) dalibor: ;)
(21:22:00) dog_ [~dog@82-69-92-124.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:27:58) Twiun[away] heißt nun Twiun
(21:28:00) Twiun: hi guys
(21:28:42) dog_: hi Twiun
(21:33:29) dalibor: hi twi
(21:33:30) dalibor: un
(21:35:36) dog_: dalibor: do you think you could summarise the Harmony situation?
(21:38:26) dalibor: dog_:  writing my blog atm
(21:38:34) dalibor: see my irc url for a quick summary
(21:38:37) dalibor: just a sec
(21:38:53) dalibor: http://rafb.net/paste/results/twPYJI90.html
(21:39:20) dalibor: in short there is  no real situation ;)
(21:39:31) dalibor: asf would like to join  in thefun.
(21:39:52) Twiun: ... but under their own umbrella, right?
(21:40:02) dalibor: but they need to do the thngs the asf way and figure out who, what, how, etc.
(21:40:11) dalibor: well, that's the part for discussion.
(21:40:20) dalibor: it's a proposal.
(21:40:29) dalibor: the way the asf works is a bit different.
(21:40:37) dalibor: it's pretty consens oriented.
(21:40:53) dalibor: so they try to debate things rather than just doing the obviously right thing ;)
(21:41:31) dalibor: more seriously, though, the asf has a large membership crowd from different backgrounds
(21:42:08) dalibor: and that means that big things like this will raise a lot of suggestions, opinions internall that they need to deal with and figure out how to get where they want to get.
(21:42:23) dalibor: the how part is pretty obvious, of course for me ;)
(21:43:21) dalibor: but now I have to prepare a few potatoes with brocoli for a few minutes.
(21:43:38) dalibor: so I'll be back in about 15 mins to answer questions
(21:43:45) dalibor: about how I see things.
(21:44:01) dalibor: I hope the IRC log from me sums it up a bit, but it is a bit sparse. 
(21:44:12) dalibor: I'll try to cover way more ground in my blog.
(21:45:05) dalibor: (and no, there is no way in my opinion it can be a threat to say gcj, kaffe or classpath)
(21:45:50) dalibor: the ASF will need some assistance from experienced folks to avoid some obvious mistakes, like NIH.
(21:45:54) wasabi hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
(21:45:58) dalibor: which is why I am on that list.
(21:46:35) dalibor: that and  the shared interest in inter-vm.interfaces.
(21:46:54) dalibor: so, off to cook a few potatoes, be back in a minute.
(21:47:04) dog_: I don't understand the requirement for an "open source" J2SE such as that described
(21:47:17) dog_: Sun already makes their sources available
(21:47:34) dog_: the licence does not guarantee freedom
(21:47:43) wasabi [~wasabi@c-67-174-173-0.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:47:47) dog_: arguably it curtails it
(21:48:41) kahmalo: For some reason, the API docs in my recent Classpath 0.15+cvs build completely lack summaries for classes in the java.util package, even though the same classes are documented on developer.classpath.org.
(21:48:52) kahmalo: I used a very recent gjdoc from CVS.
(21:49:14) dog_: what is the "value proposition" in Apache's proposal?
(21:49:44) kahmalo: Also e.g. java.util.AbstractCollection is missing entirely from the HTML.
(21:51:06) kahmalo: In my build log, gjdoc has complained "No description found for package java.util".  From where should it have read the description?
(21:51:37) dog_: kahmalo: from java/util/package.html
(21:52:11) kahmalo: dog_: Well, that file looks OK.
(21:52:42) kahmalo: I guess I'll try rebuilding the docs.
(21:52:44) dog_: kahmaol: best talk to julian37 about it
(21:53:09) dalibor: dog_: well, yeah, sun's licenses are a good deal away from being open source, though.
(21:53:26) dalibor: so for all the interesting things, they are not really useful.
(21:53:53) dalibor: i think apache's value is in bringing in people that were not reached before.
(21:54:06) kahmalo: julian37 looks too idle, and gjdoc again did the same.  So it's time for some gdb.
(21:54:19) dalibor: including sun, even, as webmink (sun's dude here on the channel) pointed out
(21:55:06) dalibor: it's seem that asf and the jcpers have an easier way of dealing with each other, as they have already spent some years building up trust.
(21:55:39) dog_: dalibor: I don't understand, and neither will 99% of people
(21:56:04) dog_: dalibor: open source means you can see the source code
(21:56:05) webmink: It's about different freedom models
(21:56:30) dalibor: dog_: the asf is more about open source as in the open source definition.
(21:56:35) webmink: There are three different freedom model in play here
(21:56:40) dalibor: rather than in shared source stuff.
(21:57:00) webmink: The "compatibility" driven one that the JCP focusses on
(21:57:10) dalibor: (and they actually write Free Software, though they don't advertise the Free Software bit, really)
(21:57:30) webmink: The "developer" driven one that FSF focusses on
(21:57:40) dog_: dalibor: you mean OSI-compatible
(21:57:44) dalibor: yeah
(21:57:46) webmink: and the "laissez faire" one that BSD/Apache focusses on
(21:57:59) webmink: dalibor: No, actually
(21:58:33) webmink: I wrote about this before: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/webmink/20050415
(21:58:38) dalibor: webmink: the apache license is OSI certified and a free software license according to fsf.
(21:58:50) dalibor: it meets both criteria.
(21:58:56) webmink: I think the Apache proposal bring the third freedom model into play
(21:59:18) webmink: dalibor: I think it's about philosophy though
(21:59:34) webmink: that's why there's tesnion between OSI and FSF even though most of us wonder why
(22:00:00) webmink: I think the Apache proposal potentially bridges the other two, largely incompatible freedom models
(22:00:18) webmink: & it is valuable chiefly because of that
(22:00:25) dims: webmink: can we expect some help from SUNW :)
(22:00:28) julian37: kahmalo: hold the gdb, i'm just taking a look at it
(22:00:35) webmink: If we are all smart we can avoid multiple bodies of code coming into existence
(22:01:02) dims: +1
(22:01:03) webmink: dims:  Potentially - see http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kgh/archive/2005/05/thoughts_on_the_1.html
(22:01:21) dims: great! 
(22:01:33) webmink: I thinjk this is crucial stuff becuase there has never been a difference in goal between any of these freedom communities
(22:01:51) webmink: it's in every case being the avoidance of monopoly, in all its forms
(22:01:53) julian37: kahmalo: sorry, can't reproduce this here with latest cvs
(22:02:30) webmink: This step offers the potential for that united goal to have a channel of expression without compromise (well, too much ;-))
(22:02:46) webmink: If we can get it all to use the same code, so much the better
(22:03:23) dalibor: well, from my side of things it looks like this:
(22:03:27) webmink: although I am of the view that the evoltuion of the Java environment needs two tracks, so I am not unhappy with the mustang/harmony split
(22:03:33) dalibor: we have been going very string so far.
(22:03:36) dalibor: strong.
(22:03:58) dalibor: and chances are we'll get even stronger with closer cooperation between runtimes in Classpath's world.
(22:04:06) dalibor: all of that without Sun.
(22:04:23) dalibor: now, if Sun wants to hop on for the ride, go for it.
(22:04:32) webmink: I'm not sure that view helps
(22:04:51) dalibor: hey, it's inclusive ;)
(22:05:05) julian37: kahmalo: what is "very recent from cvs", after May 5th?
(22:05:07) dalibor: it doesn't mean what you guys are doing is necesarily bad.
(22:05:12) dog_: webmink: so harmony is to be an asf fork of mustang?
(22:05:24) webmink: dog_: Nope
(22:05:27) dalibor: gosh, no.
(22:05:44) webmink: harmony is an ASF incubator proposal
(22:05:51) webmink: I am dreaming, here :-)
(22:05:56) kahmalo: julian37: May 6th
(22:05:57) dalibor: mustang is not Free Software, so there is no way the ASF could use that.
(22:06:04) dog_: so it will be an entirely separate codebase
(22:06:25) webmink: So many questions :-)
(22:06:28) dalibor: it boils down to either write one's own, or use classpath, or ask around.
(22:06:32) webmink: There is no code.
(22:06:45) mjw [~mark@wildebeest.demon.nl] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:06:57) dims: yep
(22:07:17) julian37: kahmalo: can you try "gjdoc -s /path/to/classpath -d /tmp/cpdocs -subpackages java" and look at that output?
(22:07:26) webmink: Right now there's PlanetClasspath, PlanetSun, PanetIBM and PlanetBEA
(22:07:31) webmink: (to name but a few)
(22:07:56) webmink: ASF hopes that out of that solar system donations and contributors will magically appear
(22:08:21) webmink: (we need geirm to speak for ASF though)
(22:08:31) kahmalo: julian37: I can't reproduce the omission either, when run in gdb under emacs.  I'll check the environment variables.
(22:08:37) dims: webmink: am here. yes, that's the hope.
(22:09:52) dims: and we did not want to just do it the traditional way - get someones code and bless it (xalan? :)
(22:10:08) dims: or even derby for that matter
(22:10:25) webmink: etc etc
(22:11:14) dims: hehe
(22:11:38) kahmalo: julian37: "gjdoc -s ~/src/FOREIGN-CVS/classpath -d /var/tmp/kalle/cpdocs -subpackages java" produces correct output too.
(22:11:42) dims: Hence we are talking to everyone and setting a level playing field...(trying to)
(22:12:02) dalibor: hi mjw
(22:12:06) mjw: hi
(22:12:37) dog_: webmink: this assumes that all these people on different planets agree with the ASL licensing terms
(22:12:53) dog_: otherwise it might as well be called Yet Another Java Class Library
(22:13:09) mjw: dog_: That is their (and our!) biggest blind spot.
(22:13:42) mjw: And that is really why I am really sad about this initiative starting before we resolved the (L)GPL/ASL incompatability.
(22:13:53) webmink: dog_: Indeed, but getting copyright holders to the table is the first step
(22:14:04) webmink: This may be a forcing function
(22:14:08) mjw: Lets just hope that this will just give us the last push to finally resolve it.
(22:14:15) mjw: webmink: That is my hope.
(22:14:16) webmink: (for the LGPL/ASL)
(22:14:17) dog_: hey, well don't talk to us, talk to the FSF
(22:14:22) dog_: (that was easy)
(22:14:27) dalibor: hehe
(22:14:32) dims: dog_: yep we are talking to FSF :)
(22:14:36) mjw: I am talking to the FSF and I am talking to the ASF.
(22:14:48) dims: every month :)
(22:14:48) dalibor: i am just talking crap all day long.
(22:14:53) dalibor: ;)
(22:14:53) dims: hehe
(22:15:04) mjw: I think most of the issues have been put on the table (both social and legal) and we can move forward.
(22:15:08) dog_: dalibor: we appreciate it, really :)
(22:15:14) dalibor: dog_: haha
(22:15:24) dalibor: dog_: sorry about the way this whole thing went off
(22:15:41) dalibor: it was really a bit of classical miscommunication crap.
(22:15:41) ***dog_ books a month of therapy
(22:15:53) ***dalibor hugs dims
(22:15:58) dalibor: darn
(22:16:03) dalibor: you all people with ds
(22:16:08) dims: time for a group hug
(22:16:08) ***dalibor hugs dog_
(22:16:10) dalibor: there.
(22:16:22) dalibor: finally got the right guy
(22:16:25) dalibor: ;)
(22:16:44) mjw: I gave geirm a bit of crap about not coordinating the announcement with me. I think he got the message. I am now trying to be a good sport about it and help this thing move forward in a constructive way.
(22:17:03) dalibor: dog_: the vm engine interface thing is just what we'were disussing a bit at fosdem
(22:17:11) julian37: kahmalo: I'd take a look into the classpath cvs build scripts, but I just ran out of disk space. have to clean up first :(
(22:17:20) dalibor: between kaffe & gcj and pushing it into classpath.
(22:17:31) dalibor: so that all our vms can use gcj in the same way.
(22:17:33) dalibor: etc.
(22:17:54) mjw: I must say I am a bit shocked about how naive people are about the work to be done. Maybe we need a couple of new fresh naive hackers to push us forward. But we shouldn't forget that we have all been working on this code bases for the last 10 years.
(22:18:15) dalibor: when i explained the idea to geirm he understood that it could be an interesting thing to have,
(22:18:44) dog_: dalibor: that's just pragmatism. we have a need for a stable and well-defined vm interface, because we have lots of different free vms. sun doesn't need to push that issue forwards
(22:18:47) dalibor: so yea
(22:19:05) dalibor: oh, none of this has anything to do with sun, afaict, really.
(22:19:28) kahmalo: julian37: hey! this might be caused by having a java/util directory in the build tree (for LocaleData.java) and another in the source tree.
(22:19:28) dalibor: the technical direction for classpath seems pretty natural that way.
(22:20:28) kahmalo: julian37: and I had the wrong working directory in by GDB run.
(22:20:43) dalibor: a shared classpath plaform that can reuse the strengths of different VMs can provide an interesting way to gradually improve things on the vm side.
(22:21:13) kahmalo: julian37: do you build in the source directory?
(22:21:37) dalibor: now, if evil corporation a comes in and gives the asf their garbage collector, that's all between asf and the evil corporation.
(22:22:08) dalibor: but if we solve the apl/gpl thing, a contribution to the asf can be useful for non-asf runtimes as well.
(22:22:22) dims: yep
(22:22:29) dalibor: not that we'd dearly need garbage collectors anyway, but yeah.
(22:23:01) julian37: kahmalo: I haven't used classpath's gjdoc target yet
(22:23:24) dalibor: for the asf internally, debating its own runtime project which rationally can only work with gnu classpath (10 years of work ;)
(22:23:47) dims: ideally, harmony would be just another satellite of the classpath eco-system.
(22:23:48) dalibor: gives the asf real incenive to help resolve the compatilbity issue.
(22:23:51) dalibor: yeah
(22:23:53) mjw: Actually GNU Classpath is just 8 years. But Kaffe and gcj were started a bit earlier.
(22:24:04) mjw: Hmmm. Who is Roy Fielding?
(22:24:10) dalibor: kaffe was there before the non.free stuff on linux ;)
(22:24:16) julian37: kahmalo: as far as gjdoc is concerned, the -sourcepath must be set correctly. and I think it should pick up files correctly even if you have the same package in more than one package root
(22:24:18) webmink: Roy founded the ASF
(22:24:20) dog_: mjw: architect of Apache httpd
(22:24:21) dims: Roy Fielding is one of the original guys on HTTPD
(22:24:31) mjw: Aha. Interesting.
(22:24:37) webmink: more importantly he wrote the governance
(22:24:51) mjw: This seems one of those hard core fuck the fsf types. Drat. We need to work on that one.
(22:24:53) webmink: hence his views on licenses :-)
(22:25:15) dalibor: dog_: so I don't see it as really a bad move. it's a bit weird to talk first and not have code, but that's the way the things seem to work with the asf, concensus frst, than the other stuff.
(22:25:17) mjw: What is "the governance"?
(22:25:17) dims: mjw: we will vote him out...board election coming up soon :)
(22:25:27) mjw: dims: No please.
(22:25:34) webmink: mjw: Just an honest reflection on what weasel words the phrase "GPL compatible" really are...
(22:25:47) mjw: I should choose my words more careful.
(22:25:51) dims: mjw: Roy is on the Open Solaris board as well :) :)
(22:26:04) mjw: I was just surprizeed that you still had such strong anti-fsf people around.
(22:26:07) dalibor: (not that I disagree with consus-based approach in general ;)
(22:26:15) mjw: I must be hanging out with the Apache-softies too much.
(22:26:22) dims: hehe
(22:26:29) webmink: mjw: Pointing out that the GPL is not reciprocal is not anti-FSF
(22:26:36) mjw: webmink: Sorry I lost the context?
(22:26:37) dalibor: dog_: and funny enough, the asf has some really weirdly anti FSF people, so they really really need to have an internal discussion on all that.
(22:26:37) dog_: dims: Roy has said many wise words in his W3C TAG capacity
(22:26:56) mjw: webmink: What do you mean with reciprocal?
(22:26:57) webmink: mjw: Roy Fielding's recent comments in the harmony list
(22:27:06) mjw: Yes, I was reading them.
(22:27:25) dalibor: so i guess if enough people sign up for doing it all under APL (classpath was 50 people over 8 years ;)
(22:27:28) webmink: mjw: I mean that "GPL compatible" actually means "Go ahead, throw away my license and license under GPL"
(22:27:28) mjw: The comment that was surprizing to me was the "only in FSF view" thing.
(22:27:32) dalibor: ... ;)
(22:27:39) webmink: there is no sense in which license can flow the other way
(22:27:45) webmink: hence GPL is asymmetric
(22:28:02) dalibor: ok, Ill leave you talk licenses, and go mess with potatoes again.
(22:28:06) mjw: Since I have been working with the ASF and FSF and we know where the incompatability is and what social/political/legal background it has.
(22:28:13) mjw: And I know we all want to solve that.
(22:28:35) mjw: webmink: that is not really how it works.
(22:28:43) webmink: dalibor: Remind you of Brazil?
(22:28:52) mjw: But that doesn't really matter.
(22:29:54) webmink: mjw: It's actually the profound root of the issue
(22:30:01) mjw: It matters if people are willing to build some social/legal/political bridges between the projects.
(22:30:23) webmink: It is what makes use of the ASL as a bridge important
(22:30:31) kahmalo: julian37: found the bug
(22:30:32) mjw: webmink: I see that. I thought we already acknowledged that and were past that step.
(22:30:50) webmink: mjw: Well, we were discussing the GPL...
(22:30:51) mjw: Apparently we have some more work to do with people like Fielding.
(22:31:24) webmink: mjw: Roy is the model of clarity & insight. I am surpeised you find his posting offensive, it's just the-way-it-is
(22:31:25) kahmalo: julian37: gnu.classpath.tools.gjdoc.RootDocImpl.findOrCreatePackageDoc first calls findSourceFile(packageDirectoryName) and then looks for package.html in that directory.
(22:31:49) kahmalo: julian37: so if there are multiple directories with the same name on the search path, it only looks for package.html in the first one.
(22:32:42) mjw: webmink: What I found surprizing (not really offensive) was that he didn't seem to acknowledge that both parties see this problem and are working on a way to fix the wording that causes it.
(22:32:52) kahmalo: julian37: I suppose classpath could easily work around this by putting the build directory at the end of the source path, as all package.html files are in the source tree anyway.
(22:33:33) webmink: mjw: Actually, that isn't relevant to the asymmetry, which will remain as it is the philosophical anchor of the FSF
(22:33:34) julian37: kahmalo: it's funny, because i just noticed that javadoc 1.5 complains if it finds more than one package.html for a given package on the sourcepath
(22:33:53) mjw: He seems to imply that at least he still doesn't acknowledge that we are in talks to fix some rather childish legal word play in the licenses so we can talk on a bit higher level about issues.
(22:33:57) julian37: kahmalo: so the correct solution would be to scan all package dirs, I guess
(22:34:12) julian37: kahmalo: anyway, that still doesn't explain why it doesn't find AbstractCollection...
(22:34:54) webmink: mjw:  I think he'd acknowledge that, but I also think he finds the thing childish too, hence his petulance 
(22:35:11) mjw: webmink: OK. Maybe that is it.
(22:35:26) kahmalo: julian37: I presume it's supposed to scan all package directories for source files.  Where is that code so I can debug it?
(22:35:36) mjw: webmink: But you can now also see why I was so sad that this was done before we fixed the legal-words.
(22:36:12) dims: mjw: but we came to consensus to proceed in parallel. right?
(22:36:14) webmink: mjw: Well yes; I have heard opinions elsewhere today suggesting it was necessary to help that discussion reach its conclusion, though
(22:36:31) mjw: Now we have a discussion on two levels. The legal-word-incompatability-level (boooooring). And on the copyleft and patent hoarding level.
(22:36:33) julian37: kahmalo: one sec
(22:37:06) kahmalo: julian37: also, do you want me to post the package.html thing in the bug tracker?
(22:37:16) mjw: Maybe it will at least solve the incompatible-words issues quicker. I hope that.
(22:37:24) dims: yep
(22:37:24) webmink: mjw: +1
(22:37:43) julian37: kahmalo: I was mistaken, looks like it doesn't properly implement scanning of all root directories atm
(22:37:45) mjw: I feel if that is behind us then the social-incompatability issues can be discussed on a more honest level.
(22:38:48) julian37: kahmalo: i'll try to look at it tomorrow, no need to post a bug report
(22:39:33) mjw: Also I am a bit sad that people seem to not pick up that for GNU Classpath we will solve any problem have with the words or the social impact of the license we use however is the most convenient. We cannot promise such a thing for things outside GNU Classpath of course. But for the core libraries there should not be any barrier for cooperation and integration whatsoever.
(22:39:53) mjw: They seem too focused on general ASL/GPL issues.
(22:40:03) mjw: Which are kind of meaningless without actual code on the table.
(22:40:27) kahmalo: julian37: I'll patch my copy of classpath/doc/api/Makefile.am to put the build directory last, as a workaround.
(22:40:42) mjw: We will see how it goes.
(22:40:53) mjw: It will be interested if more people would offer code.
(22:41:02) mjw: At the moment it really is just us.
(22:41:22) mjw: Although putting 1 million lines on the table is a good starting point I guess :)
(22:41:40) dog_: presumably all this barney happened before with glibc - what was the solution in that case (or did everyone just agree to differ)?
(22:41:46) julian37: kahmalo: ok, thanks for looking into it
(22:41:52) webmink: mjw: I get bitchslapped when I mention LOC wrt Sun's activity...
(22:42:06) webmink: bt yes :-)
(22:42:07) mjw: webmink: But you are Sun!
(22:42:19) webmink: I /work/ for them
(22:42:27) mjw: You have to work harder to be liked and believed :)
(22:42:38) webmink: Why, exactly?
(22:42:54) ***mjw teases poor webmink a little.
(22:43:08) ***webmink licks wounds
(22:43:35) mjw: webmink: Two words - Scott and Jonathan
(22:43:36) dims: mjw: you have not worked for a huge corporation. have you? :)
(22:43:58) mjw: dims: Not as big as Sun no.
(22:44:28) mjw: dims: That is why people like me and people don't like webmink :)
(22:44:42) dims: hehe
(22:44:46) ***webmink tries to lick the salt off the wounds
(22:45:08) mjw: I just have to be a nice guy on my own. He has to drag with him a couple of thousand others (some with much bigger mouths then he has...) hehe
(22:45:38) dims: FWIW, i made several attempts for sharing stuff for Axis / JWSDP and haven't been able to pull it off.
(22:45:40) webmink: Sun's problem is it lets people speak their minds
(22:45:55) webmink: we need to clamp down on that
(22:46:05) webmink: get on-message
(22:46:16) dims: we are getting help in Apache XML-Security though.
(22:46:22) mjw: webmink: Well, it makes clear that there are many different camps.
(22:46:32) dims: exactly
(22:46:35) webmink: Sun is a micro-cosm of FOSS
(22:46:44) mjw: webmink: NOT JUST FOSS!
(22:46:50) mjw: Really. Stop doing that.
(22:47:25) webmink: Agreed. We have been doing it much longer than there has been FOSS.
(22:47:52) mjw: I am really happy when you talk about all the FOSS projects Sun does. But somehow there is always some proprietary shit being dragged in.
(22:48:18) webmink: Only if you define "proprietary" as "non-FSF"
(22:48:24) dalibor: haha
(22:48:33) dalibor: i go away for 10 minutes ;)
(22:48:34) dims: need to feed families and pay for vacations :)
(22:48:34) mjw: webmink: Grow up.
(22:48:50) webmink: mjw: Really. I hear that word slammed about sooo much
(22:49:05) webmink: it is just an expression of dogma
(22:49:25) webmink: Sun's done a few thngs that are genuinesly proprietary
(22:49:29) webmink: they all failed
(22:49:43) webmink: All the things that worked were/are freedom-oriented
(22:49:44) mjw: No, when I use it you know that I am talking about non free software, non open source software and non DFSG free.
(22:50:47) kahmalo: doh!  I wrote a ChangeLog entry and verbose comment about why I changed the code, but then forgot to actually change it.
(22:50:49) dims: dalibor: we need to let kaffe gump run a few days before we can confirm that all's well. but latest patches are holding up well.
(22:51:28) dims: oops, wrong channel again
(22:51:55) mjw: dims: Still great news!
(22:52:05) dalibor: dims: awesome, seen it.
(22:52:19) dalibor: kaffe's gc now really rocks.
(22:52:24) ***mjw needs to work on commons-collections.
(22:52:25) dalibor: thanks to guilhem.
(22:52:30) dims: hold your horses :) let's wait a bit :) :)
(22:52:34) dalibor: hehe
(22:52:35) mjw: I actually know what the bugs are in that one.
(22:52:39) dalibor: nice!
(22:52:51) mjw: Don't have real solutions yet.
(22:53:08) dalibor: i know that I have to resync the whole last two weeks, because I spent so much time talking, talking rather than hacking hacking.
(22:53:13) dalibor: i talk way to much.
(22:53:13) mjw: Partly it is our code, partly it is their testsuite which assumes some things that aren't guaranteed.
(22:53:24) dalibor: or i need a speech-to-irc interface.
(22:53:27) dalibor: or something ;)
(22:53:29) dims: now i have to write a VMBreaker2 :)
(22:53:32) dalibor: hehe
(22:53:40) dims: mjw: i can fix the commons collections code if needed
(22:53:48) dalibor: dims: it should really go into mauve
(22:53:53) dims: just send me a diff
(22:54:03) dims: dalibor: +1
(22:54:20) mjw: dims: OK. One thing that the testsuite assumes is the ListIterators not always throw a ConcurrentModificationException.
(22:54:50) mjw: We are more strict in detecting any changes outside an Iterator then some other implementations of the collection classes.
(22:55:11) guilhem[dinner] hat den Raum verlassen ("Kopete 0.8.4 : http://kopete.kde.org").
(22:55:12) dims: ok. so i need to add a try/catch?
(22:55:18) mjw: This means the commons-collections testsuite sometimes gets that exception too early.
(22:55:25) mjw: dims: It is more subtle then that.
(22:55:37) mjw: It is in a couple of tests for things that should fail.
(22:55:59) mjw: The tests however don't expect the failure to be so failfast.
(22:56:20) mjw: I haven't really analyzed how to change the tests so that they actually test the correct failure mode.
(22:56:24) dims: so they fail before all the stuff is run and hence declare a failure?
(22:56:48) dims: plz drop me a note when u get a change.
(22:56:53) dims: s/change/chance/
(22:57:08) dims: back in a bit
(22:57:09) mjw: Yeah, basically the get a list iterator, change some things behind its back, loop to the last element and check that it has been illegally changed.
(22:57:56) mjw: However our Collection classes are too smart and immediately see the change to the collection and throw ConcurrentModificationException before the test can finish.
(23:00:41) mjw: O great green is on the harmony list now.
(23:00:49) dog_: mjw: no news on this fdlibm issue?
(23:01:11) dog_: mjw: i am tempted to just wipe this machine and start again
(23:01:12) mjw: He did the major work libgcj, Cygnus, FSF and GNU Classpath merger back in 2000.
(23:01:30) mjw: dog_: No, sorry. I assumed you and andreast had a handle on that one.
(23:01:36) mjw: Apparently not.
(23:01:46) mjw: And I don't know anything about Darwin...
(23:02:17) dog_: mjw: it works under Darwin 8, apparently.
(23:06:25) mjw: OK. That was my quick visit for today.
(23:06:35) mjw: Probably won't be online again till monday.
(23:06:49) mjw: But maybe I pop up tomorrow morning quickly.
(23:06:50) dog_: mjw: have a good weekend
(23:07:36) mjw: dog_: You to! Hope you won't be formatting, cleaning, installing all the time.
(23:07:42) mjw hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "poof").
(23:10:46) dalibor: dog_: kick webmink to make someone at sun maitain fdlibm again ;)
(23:12:06) dog_: dalibor: frankly i don't know why we need fdlibm, why can't we just use libm?
(23:12:44) dims: mjw: anthony?
(23:14:01) dalibor: dog_: yeah, kinda sorta.
(23:14:43) dalibor: the trouble is that someone at sun really dearly wanted to have mathematicall calculations all wrong in an odd way, so they set the spec in stone to use an old borked version of fdlib for those.
(23:14:57) dalibor: well, they probably didn't *want* that
(23:15:23) dog_: we could use libm and munge the edge cases
(23:15:24) dalibor: but specifiying some fdlibm release as the one and only standard is a bit odd in the long run.
(23:15:34) dalibor: that'd be way faster i guess.
(23:15:42) dalibor: we need to check the semantics of that really.
(23:15:43) ***webmink hold hand firmly over mouth
(23:15:59) dalibor: i think the normal float is allowed to munge, right webmink?
(23:16:11) webmink: dalibor: Search me.
(23:16:17) dalibor: and for specfloat we can use the StrictFloat implementation.
(23:16:29) dalibor: slash/recommend that runtimes use that.
(23:16:33) webmink: Don' confuse me with someone who has a clue, please.
(23:16:44) webmink: I am just here for kicking.
(23:19:04) dog_: dalibor: anyway this is not an fdlibm problem per se
(23:19:32) dog_: dalibor: it is something to do with libtool
(23:21:16) ***dalibor hugs webmink
(23:21:31) ***webmink weeps a little, hugs dalibor back
(23:21:31) dalibor: webmink: i guess you should get yourself a bile blog too ;)
(23:21:44) webmink: I have 5 blogs already...
(23:21:50) dalibor: my days in life as the SUNW puchbag on #classpath
(23:22:05) dalibor: dog_: could you tell me the error message?
(23:22:54) dog_: dalibor: see my message to classpath from Thursday
(23:23:15) dims: now miguel chimes in - http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2005/May-07.html
(23:23:50) dog_: dalibor: I can't even find where it's supposed to be happening in the makefile
(23:25:22) dalibor: haha
(23:25:26) dalibor: holy fucking crap.
(23:25:43) dalibor: why don't frigging kaffe releases get that sort of featurettes all over the web.
(23:25:50) dalibor: ;)
(23:26:10) dims: hopefully all this brouhaha will die down and we can get to work soon!
(23:26:22) webmink: You hope!
(23:26:35) robilad hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
(23:26:41) dalibor: dims: the brouhaha will follow you like a google cookie.
(23:27:11) webmink: "It is your deeestinyyyyy"
(23:27:41) ***dims wonders what i signed up for...
(23:27:46) ***webmink wanders away to get Star Wars tickets
(23:28:09) webmink hat den Raum verlassen.
(23:29:01) geirm: hi all
(23:29:12) geirm: what's going on?
(23:29:17) geirm: I've been out running errands
(23:32:24) dog_: dalibor: if I 's:\~:;:g' $BUILDDIR/libtool it works
(23:34:26) dalibor: dog_: bizarre.
(23:34:56) dalibor: could you check vs Kaffe's libraries/clib/fdlibm/Makefile.am?
(23:35:11) dalibor: maybe there is a patch in there i didn't commit yet.
(23:35:29) dalibor: geirm: oh, mig decided to chip in.
(23:35:37) dalibor: and webmink got a whipping.
(23:35:55) geirm: let me start with simple questions because I'm tired....
(23:35:57) geirm: things going well or bad?
(23:36:10) dalibor: i am fine. ;)
(23:36:15) dalibor: dog_: you fine too?
(23:36:42) ***dog_ is not as petulant as before
(23:36:50) dalibor: it's a bit hard to explain what the ASF is really doing without being the ASF though.
(23:36:55) dalibor: ;)
(23:37:55) dalibor: so, in essence, the ASF PMC mail has raised quite a few wtfs? here
(23:38:03) geirm: ?
(23:38:10) dalibor: and mig seems to have got it rather weirdly
(23:38:12) geirm: oh - "here in #classpath"
(23:38:15) dalibor: yeah
(23:38:17) geirm: I see
(23:38:25) geirm: well, I'm here to answer any questions that I can 
(23:38:35) geirm: if I can help...
(23:38:43) dalibor: you may want to explain to dog what it really is the ASF is set out to achieve, how and why ;)
(23:39:03) dog_: and how the whole situation is different from glibc
(23:39:11) dalibor: there is a certain point where I kind of have to give up guessing and just leave it to you.
(23:39:14) dalibor: ;)
(23:39:16) geirm: I don't understand the context of 'glibc'
(23:39:18) dalibor: so go, geirm!
(23:39:23) dalibor: ;)
(23:39:35) dalibor: ah, you are not familiar with the libc/glibc?
(23:39:47) geirm: it's been a while
(23:39:53) dalibor: dog_: could you give a bit of context?
(23:40:01) dalibor: geirm: no problem.
(23:40:03) dog_: once there was UNIX
(23:40:11) dog_: :-)
(23:40:23) geirm: not just one unix, but many
(23:40:26) geirm: and they were good
(23:40:36) geirm: and then the lord said, let there be Hurd!
(23:40:41) geirm: sorry...
(23:40:43) geirm: go on
(23:40:55) geirm: it's been a long, long week
(23:41:11) dog_: sure
(23:41:33) geirm: really - I'll be quiet
(23:41:35) dog_: glibc was created as the free implementation of libc
(23:41:35) geirm: go on
(23:41:38) geirm: right
(23:42:01) dog_: ASF doesn't have any problems with glibc
(23:42:15) geirm: no
(23:42:15) dog_: glibc is distributed under GPL
(23:42:25) dog_: which part is wrong?
(23:42:34) geirm: sorry - I was agreeing
(23:42:47) geirm: as in "no, AFAIK it doesn't have any problem..."
(23:43:04) geirm: we don't distribute glibc though, do we?
(23:43:09) geirm: re-distribute
(23:43:11) dog_: Classpath was created as the free implementation of the Java class libraries
(23:43:30) geirm: right
(23:43:31) dog_: Classpath is distributed under GPL
(23:43:36) geirm: right
(23:43:48) geirm: I see where you are going
(23:43:50) geirm: ok 
(23:44:04) geirm: glibc is an implementation of a standard set of APIs, right?
(23:44:17) dog_: right
(23:44:47) geirm: ie.  stdio.h et al?
(23:45:00) geirm: (It's been years since I did any C and C++ in anger...)
(23:45:07) dog_: yes
(23:45:21) dog_: and a lot of behavioural descriptions
(23:46:09) geirm: now, the ASF has a policy that any *distributable* that comes from the ASF will be licensed by the Apache License or 'better', better in the limitation sense
(23:46:15) geirm: now, that's just one issue
(23:46:24) kahmalo hat den Raum verlassen ("ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.703 $ (IRC client for Emacs)").
(23:46:41) geirm: we also believe that writing to standard APIs is a good thing - w/ standard APIs, you have the choice to find another implementation that youw ant, and can plug it in
(23:46:58) geirm: hence that to the ASF, glibc and libc are the same - the end user makes the choice, and our software doesn't know / care
(23:47:05) dog_: right, ASF should not have to distribute Classpath, that is the job of platform maintainers
(23:47:11) geirm: the dynamic linker solves the probem
(23:47:17) geirm: at runtime (ish)
(23:47:51) geirm: so in the case of Harmony, one of our major stated purposes is to find "stdio.h" for the class library interface between a VM and a classlib
(23:47:55) geirm: (so to speak)
(23:48:03) dog_: just like ASF should not have to distribute Java compilers and virtual machines
(23:48:05) geirm: that's no the J2SE API, but the API between the library and the VM
(23:48:30) geirm: well, right - that's the promise of Java - we don't have to distro the j2se platform
(23:48:35) geirm: however, if we do, it has to be complete
(23:48:43) geirm: that's one of the snags
(23:49:02) geirm: there's an interesting issue here, isn't there...
(23:49:18) geirm: because when you get J2SE for platform X, there's assumptions about what that platform has on it
(23:49:21) geirm: i.e. libc
(23:49:23) ***dalibor points to jikesrvm
(23:49:28) geirm: or some dll thingy on windows
(23:49:33) dalibor: they don't distribute classpath either.
(23:49:40) dalibor: you just fetch and go.
(23:49:43) geirm: right
(23:49:54) geirm: we're going down a rathole, but this is something we should keep in mind
(23:50:10) geirm: it would be great to have java class libs as part of the standard OS platform like glibc
(23:50:22) wasabi: That's kinda of the goal of classpath, no?
(23:50:24) geirm: however, we're going to get our asses handed to us if we lead off with that notion, so lets not :)
(23:50:28) dog_: we're all working hard to make sure those assumptions/expectations are fulfilled
(23:50:45) geirm: well, like it or not, we have to dance with Sun on this
(23:50:50) wasabi: wasabi@kyoto:~$ dpkg -l classpath
(23:50:50) wasabi: ii  classpath      0.14-1         clean room standard Java libraries
(23:50:53) wasabi: No VM involved.
(23:51:00) geirm: I know
(23:51:07) geirm: And I really like what you're doing
(23:51:42) dog_: geirm: what do you mean about the notion?
(23:51:47) geirm: but at the ASF, we have to come at it from a different angle
(23:52:13) geirm: dog_: we'll have lots of trouble if we start agitating to do what you are doing
(23:52:26) geirm: IOW, if the ASF said "we're here to make Java class libs part of every OS"
(23:52:37) geirm: we'd  lose any credibility when we talked about doing a compatible platform
(23:52:45) geirm: as Sun doesn't grok "the notion" as being good
(23:52:55) wasabi: I don't get it.
(23:52:55) dog_: the ASF doesn't have to do that
(23:53:05) wasabi: Sounds like a lot of posturing.
(23:53:13) theBohemian: wasabi: same here
(23:53:13) theBohemian: wasabi: These are the packages that I would merge, in order:
(23:53:13) theBohemian: wasabi: Calculating dependencies  ...done!
(23:53:13) theBohemian: wasabi: [ebuild     UD] dev-java/gnu-classpath-0.12 [0.14] +gtk +jikes 4,032 kB
(23:53:13) theBohemian: :)
(23:53:30) wasabi: Posturing doesn't produce code.
(23:53:32) dog_: Sun wants to make the Java platform part of every platform (as long as it's Solaris, Windows, or recent Linux 386)
(23:53:48) dog_: the GNU project wants to make a complete GNU platform
(23:53:51) geirm: it's not posturing as much as focusing on the goal
(23:53:54) dog_: including Java support
(23:54:08) wasabi: The goal? "To run and develop Java applications."
(23:54:10) wasabi: Duh.
(23:54:39) geirm: no, the goal of doing a J2SE project (part of what we want to do in Harmony)
(23:55:02) wasabi: Still not seeing it. ;)
(23:55:06) geirm: I know.
(23:55:11) geirm: I'm not doing a good job here
(23:55:26) wasabi: I can't see anything other than a license issue.
(23:55:41) geirm: well, we clearly have a license issue
(23:55:54) wasabi: Well, explain the issue then.
(23:55:55) geirm: and we clearly want to solve it
(23:55:59) wasabi: Other than "it's not ASL"
(23:56:03) wasabi: You'll have to do better than that.
(23:56:31) geirm: well, IIRC, AL has been declared incompatible w/ the GPL by rms
(23:56:47) wasabi: Okay. Practically, what problems does that cause?
(23:56:55) geirm: and our POV is that we don't distribute software that has more restrictions on the user than the apache license
(23:57:11) geirm: practically?  well, it means that you can't use APR in Classpath, right?
(23:57:18) geirm: it means you can't use APR in Kaffe
(23:57:31) wasabi: And the APR introduces what benefits?
(23:57:37) geirm: and our POV means we can't re-dist GNU Classpath
(23:57:43) geirm: I don't know - that's up to you
(23:57:50) geirm: I thought dalibor was interested
(23:57:56) theBohemian: wasabi: it lessens the amount of platform specific native code
(23:57:58) wasabi: Does using the APR furthur the goal up above: "To run and develop java applications"?
(23:58:01) geirm: I'm not here to sell APR to anyone
(23:58:17) geirm: wasabi: yes, if you want to use a portability layer
(23:58:30) geirm: so you don't have to re-invent the wheel for each platform you want to run on
(23:58:32) dog_: geirm: you haven't explained why the ASF wants to start distributing things that should be part of the platform (they're even *described* as being a platform), if your goal is to be platform-neutral (run on glibc or libc, etc).
(23:58:33) wasabi: Well, after analyzing the reasons for making your own, it seems to fall to a simple nih.
(23:58:35) theBohemian: wasabi: it is not about apr in special. think of MX4J which is also ASL licensed
(23:58:37) wasabi: not invented here.
(23:58:37) geirm: but again, I'm not here to sell APR
(23:59:03) geirm: no, it's not NIH
(23:59:09) geirm: we are *extremely* lazy
(23:59:15) wasabi: haha
(23:59:18) geirm: look at Geronimo, a project that I helped found
(23:59:25) geirm: we use code from all over the place
(23:59:30) geirm: there is more code from outside the ASF than inside
(23:59:46) geirm: we use Jetty, MX4J, OpenEJB, Howl, JOTM, ....
(23:59:51) geirm: we use *Jetty*
(00:00:00) geirm: why?  because the jetty people showed up to help and integrate it
(00:00:06) geirm: the tomcat people came much later
(00:00:09) geirm: we'll do tomcat too
(00:00:28) geirm: so my point is that when we can integrate, share and collaborate under terms that we can for our license philosophy, we do so
(00:00:29) wasabi: Hmm, so the basic issue is you'd like to contribute to classpath, but licensing prevents you from doing so?
(00:00:33) wasabi: mx4j as an example?
(00:00:37) geirm: no, I can contribute if I wanted to
(00:00:45) FJStatsLog hat den Raum verlassen ("Rotating Logs").
(00:00:46) geirm: mx4j?  we have done lots of work at MX4j
(00:00:47) FJStatsLog [~fjstats@wildebeest.demon.nl] hat den Raum betreten.
(00:01:04) geirm: one Geronimo committer has spent a lot of time to make it pass the TCK
(00:01:15) wasabi: I guess the question is really pretty simple. My Debian OS distributes classpath and it distributes mx4j.
(00:01:15) geirm: we happily contributed all that work to mx4j for all to share
(00:01:19) wasabi: Why is debian allowed to do this.
(00:01:34) geirm: I dunno - ask debian
(00:01:42) geirm: I don't see a problem
(00:01:47) geirm: I think mx4j is not apache licensed
(00:01:48) wasabi: me neither really. ;)
(00:01:57) geirm: let me check
(00:02:02) wasabi: i just find it odd you're gonna write a lot of code to not fix a problem.
(00:02:27) wasabi: #
(00:02:27) wasabi: # License: Apache Software License
(00:02:44) geirm: oh, it's a renamed Apache license 1.0
(00:02:52) geirm: http://mx4j.sourceforge.net/docs/ch01s06.html
(00:03:06) wasabi: oh heh silly sf
(00:03:14) geirm: that's why - it's not the awful and evil apache license 2 :)
(00:03:21) geirm: which as a feature the FSF likes!
(00:03:29) geirm: but that's the feature why it's incompatible w/ the GPL :)
(00:03:37) wasabi: so the gpl3 is supposed to fix that no?
(00:03:45) geirm: so what happens when the FSF adds that to GPL 3?  is GPL3 code therefore incompatible w/ GPL 2 code?
(00:03:55) geirm: that would be ironic
(00:04:01) wasabi: most likely, except most gpl2 software says
(00:04:07) geirm: but I don't want to argue about licenses until we're around a table with beer
(00:04:08) wasabi: licensed under the gpl v2 or later
(00:04:11) wasabi: that i've seen anyways
(00:04:20) geirm: that's true
(00:04:23) dog_: that is not important for classpath
(00:04:33) dog_: because fsf owns the copyright on classpath
(00:05:03) wasabi: Once again, I don't see the problem.
(00:05:04) wasabi: Heh.
(00:05:30) geirm: anyway, if we have an API between HarmonyVM and GNUClasspath that's standard
(00:05:48) wasabi: Okay, you mean VM specific calls in bytecode?
(00:05:52) wasabi: That I can agree on fixing.
(00:05:58) dog_: shared system properties?
(00:06:15) geirm: well, if we make some kind of pluggability of the class libraries through a standard set of interfaces
(00:06:23) geirm: so that other class libs can be plugged in
(00:06:26) wasabi: Well, most of the class libraries are pure java.
(00:06:31) geirm: really?
(00:06:32) wasabi: java itself is the standard interface
(00:06:39) wasabi: I thought so
(00:06:40) wasabi: Am I wrong?
(00:06:46) theBohemian: I wont go that far
(00:06:51) geirm: I would have thought there be a pile of native code
(00:06:57) geirm: how do you do sockets?
(00:07:01) dog_: a small pile
(00:07:03) geirm: any file I/O?
(00:07:06) geirm: ah
(00:07:10) theBohemian: although our vm interface is java there is a lot of JNI ..
(00:07:11) wasabi: sockets and file IO are centralized.
(00:07:17) dog_: the native code has a standard interface with the VM called JNI
(00:07:24) wasabi: ya know, thru specific class's
(00:07:33) wasabi: JNI isn't really an interface with the VM.
(00:07:38) wasabi: It's an interface with the native platform.
(00:07:51) wasabi: If our socket implementation uses JNI, it can be used by any java-vm
(00:07:53) wasabi: basically.
(00:08:44) theBohemian: harmony may implement their own using apr or such but then their software would be dependent on gnu classpath ...
(00:08:49) wasabi: The problems I see are minimal.
(00:08:55) wasabi: Runtime.GC or whatever.
(00:08:56) wasabi: FOr instance.
(00:09:26) wasabi: Well, I can't say I would mind using the APR in the classpath JNI bits.
(00:09:36) wasabi: I've used APR a few times, and I do see it's benefits.
(00:09:54) wasabi: but that's not in anyway my decision. :0
(00:09:58) ***wasabi just talking.
(00:10:57) geirm: sorry - back
(00:11:21) dog_: when these chunks of code become more stable and well-known there will be standard implementations for each OS, it's just a matter of time
(00:11:32) wasabi: THat's the goal of classpath.
(00:11:37) theBohemian: anyway. when I was pointed to the incubator mailing list this afternoon I was a bit puzzled about the announcement but now the facts seem pretty and I am happy that we have a small cooperation with you ASF guys :)
(00:11:57) geirm: that's great - that's the hope
(00:12:12) geirm: just getting the conversation started is a good thing
(00:12:29) ***theBohemian does the group hug thing ;)
(00:12:37) dog_: what about my previous question - why does Apache want to distribute a platform, instead of running on any platform?
(00:12:56) geirm: well, what do you mean "instead of running on any..."?
(00:13:07) geirm: don't think of this as "Apache" doing it
(00:13:15) geirm: Apache itself makes no technology decisions
(00:13:39) geirm: this is something a group of us want to do, and the ASF's charter is to provide the legal and technical infrastructure to let us do it
(00:13:45) geirm: just to be clear
(00:14:02) geirm: we want to implement a complete J2SE platform
(00:14:04) wasabi: Well, it's worth noting that classpath+othervms are Very Good right now. ;)
(00:14:10) wasabi: Like, Eclipse runs. ;)
(00:14:10) geirm: we want to use as much code as we can
(00:14:14) dog_: you said before that the goal of Apache with respect to glibc was "glibc and libc are the same - the end user makes the choice, and our software doesn't know / care"
(00:14:16) wasabi: ANd that's no small feat!
(00:14:31) dog_: why is it different with the Java libraries?
(00:14:33) geirm: that is certainly impressive
(00:14:45) geirm: Dalibor was showing slide after slide of really cool things that Just Run
(00:15:07) wasabi: What just bugs me though is that our goal is the same.
(00:15:18) geirm: I know
(00:15:19) wasabi: Yeah ya'll are off there doing things elsewhere. ;)
(00:15:21) wasabi: yet
(00:16:13) dog_: geirm: OK I'll stop saying "goal of Apache"
(00:16:26) geirm: :)
(00:16:36) geirm: it's a natural thing to say.  I just wanted it to be clear, that's all
(00:16:43) geirm: I'll probably say it that way myself
(00:16:45) geirm: sometimes
(00:16:52) dog_: you don't want to make an ASF libc?
(00:16:56) geirm: no
(00:17:02) wasabi: isn't that APR? :0
(00:17:06) geirm: no
(00:17:07) geirm: :)
(00:17:30) geirm: we don't see the java class libs as separable from the VM when producing J2SE
(00:17:38) wasabi: OKay. That's cool.
(00:17:42) geirm: that doesn't mean we have to write every line
(00:17:49) geirm: as I said, I'm personally very lazy
(00:17:52) wasabi: So download yourself a copy of classpath and kaffe, build them, and make a setup program containing both. ;)
(00:17:55) geirm: my favorite java keyword is "import"
(00:18:51) dog_: geirm: so why do you want to make an ASF "libj"?
(00:20:08) wasabi: im still not convinced. if those of you who want to make a free jvm really want to make one, just start contributing to classpath. If licensing issues are a problem, bring them up and get them solved in classpath. Only if that's impossible would I suggest making your own. After all, classpath only exists cause of licensing issues in the alternatives. ;)
(00:20:42) geirm: one sec - back in about 2 min
(00:23:56) dalibor: wasabi: yep
(00:25:46) geirm: back
(00:25:58) dog_: I think our goals are different - we want to make a complete free OS. That means having a free libc and a free libj and all the rest. If you're just doing this because you're reacting to a pain incurred by incompatibilities between the free libj and Sun's libj, you can probably help in other ways (e.g. as an intermediate between us and Sun) that would be more productive than creating a new libj.
(00:26:04) geirm: ok - first, while I like the idea of "libj", there is no such concept in J2SE yet
(00:26:14) geirm: yes, I see the value, yes, we should hope to be there at some point
(00:26:24) geirm: with java "just there" on operating systems
(00:27:08) dalibor: (+50 using kaffe, and not counting gcj and others)
(00:27:30) geirm: well, being compatible is important
(00:27:54) geirm: (not that I think you won' t get there soon...)
(00:28:36) geirm: dog_: I've always volunteered from the day I met a few of you to help as an intermediary between you and Sun
(00:28:47) dalibor: and he is, really.
(00:29:15) dog_: and is that not working? (it's going to take a while, realistically)
(00:29:16) dalibor: geir has been of great assstance during my talks with kluyt in brazil.
(00:29:22) dalibor: yeah
(00:30:05) dalibor: though, apparently phipps has been able to get the right buttons pressed within sun to start fixing some of the braindamage in the TCK licenses, and such.
(00:30:33) dog_: i have animals grffing at me impatiently to take them for an evening walk
(00:30:47) theBohemian: http://pastebin.ca/11189
(00:30:49) ***dog_ is off now but will be back tomorrow
(00:31:04) dog_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: ).
(00:31:21) dalibor: so in that respect it's quite clear that asf and the weird punks (i.e. me) can work together to help sun ween off from whatever stuff their legal team is on ;)
(00:31:53) dalibor: theBohemian: hahaha, yeah ;)
(00:32:16) wasabi: geirm, the thing is your use case and ours totally overlap
(00:32:21) wasabi: step a) make a free j2se platform
(00:32:26) wasabi: step b) get it on all OS'
(00:32:31) wasabi: YOu seem to be step b!
(00:33:11) wasabi: step a will be enough for all the linux distros, for windows and the rest, step b just needs installers built.
(00:33:32) dalibor: wasabi: yeah. the funny thing is that the ASF internally has to go through a debate, discussion, and what not process before it is clear whatthe best thing for the asf is. it is obvious to me, of course. ;)
(00:33:40) wasabi: yeah.
(00:33:48) dalibor: but i am not even a member of the asf ;)
(00:33:48) wasabi: I mean, we're already like, done... we just need more coverage.
(00:33:56) dalibor: yep.
(00:33:56) wasabi: I can install java programs on my Ubuntu.
(00:33:58) wasabi: And they just work.
(00:34:09) wasabi: Just needs a better Swing and AWT.
(00:34:10) dalibor: yeah, man. and it's going so bloody fast.
(00:34:12) wasabi: And some generic support.
(00:34:16) dalibor: yep.
(00:34:18) wasabi: But really, we have what geirm wants to build, already.
(00:34:27) dalibor: kaffe actually does some of 1.5 ish stuff now,apparently.
(00:34:33) dalibor: i didn't notice.
(00:34:35) dalibor: ;)
(00:34:52) geirm: LOL
(00:35:06) dalibor: i don't have a need for 1.5 ;)
(00:35:11) wasabi: I'd like somebody to take Kaffe and make it compile on Windows and release an installer for it.
(00:35:20) wasabi: But that's hardly worthy of a massive reimplementation effort. ;)
(00:35:34) dalibor: wasabi: there are 3 (three) windows ports of kaffe
(00:35:38) dalibor: plus two dos ports.
(00:35:39) wasabi: n/m then
(00:35:59) wasabi: So, I can't see any point in creating one more.
(00:35:59) dalibor: cygwin is currently screwed due to bugs in cygwin.
(00:36:14) dalibor: mingw32 needs me tomerge it over.
(00:36:21) dalibor: and wince the same.
(00:36:27) wasabi: Unless you guys get off on writing VM and classlibraries... and if that's the case... whatever floats your boat. ;)
(00:36:29) dalibor: (es, kaffe has a wince port)
(00:36:38) dalibor: wasabi: me? no fucking way.
(00:36:38) motse hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Konversation terminated!").
(00:36:58) wasabi: WHy are there 3 windows ports?
(00:37:01) wasabi: That needs to be solved imo
(00:37:07) wasabi: Just confuses the crud out of people.
(00:37:09) dalibor: i am the lazeist anti-NIH bastard around in the proximity of 5 irc channels ;)
(00:37:16) wasabi: It's like GTK on windows.
(00:37:22) dalibor: because noone bothered t clean them up ;)
(00:37:24) wasabi: THere are half a dozen GTK installers, that put stuff in different places.
(00:38:21) theBohemian: how many persistence frameworks exists for java btw :)
(00:38:25) wasabi: A ton.
(00:39:49) theBohemian: java.math.BigInteger might be too small to gave everyone a unique id :P
(00:40:05) dalibor: haha
(00:41:42) theBohemian: dalibor: I would like to write a short announcement for pro-linux on the harmony thing before the news swaps over form /. way
(00:42:36) dalibor: go for it.
(00:42:42) dalibor: i am writing up my blog atm
(00:43:07) wasabi: geirm is awfully quiet. I was hoping he'd have an earthshattering reason for me to make me supportive. ;)
(00:43:07) theBohemian: dalibor: I do not want to answer the "is harmony writing their own classlibrary" at LinuxTag a hundred of times ;)
(00:43:22) geirm: oh - sorry
(00:43:35) geirm: I have a 2 year old daughter that hasn't seen me all week
(00:43:40) theBohemian: wasabi: what is holding you back?
(00:43:42) geirm: she's distracting :)
(00:43:55) tromey: yo dudes
(00:43:56) wasabi: theBohemian, i want classpath done so I can get on with the goal.
(00:44:00) geirm: wasabi: how about this... keep an open mind, come participate, and see what happens?  what's the down side?
(00:44:01) wasabi: "running and developing java applications"
(00:44:08) wasabi: =(
(00:45:45) theBohemian: wasabi: the best thing that can happen IMHO is that gnu classpath can be used for the apache's own VM 
(00:45:45) geirm: ?
(00:45:57) wasabi: i guess.
(00:46:15) wasabi: im a progress person, that's all
(00:46:52) theBohemian: wasabI: ah you mean the ASF should back an existing VM effort ?
(00:47:44) dalibor: ikvm would really fit their licensing ieche.
(00:47:44) wasabi: Actually, I regonize the ASF, and anybody, can do whatever they want to do.
(00:47:45) dalibor: nieche
(00:47:50) wasabi: On the other hand, they are a bunch of smart people.
(00:47:57) wasabi: Having them in here helping on our existing effort would be awesome.
(00:48:02) dalibor: yeah
(00:48:09) dalibor: that'S what my task is.
(00:48:18) dalibor: bring some ratio from outside to the table ;)
(00:48:21) wasabi: Because we'd be done faster.
(00:48:27) wasabi: ANd that's the goal right?
(00:48:30) dalibor: from someone who has been in that pit already ;)
(00:48:49) dalibor: and is crawling out as fast he can ;)
(00:49:20) theBohemian: dalibor/geirm: what is the perception of the linking exception as a compromise from the FSF's side?
(00:49:37) dalibor: i have no idea what either fsf or asf think about it.
(00:49:50) wasabi: I'm not seeing that there is a compromise is there? ASF always releases ASL.
(00:49:51) wasabi: No?
(00:49:56) dalibor: for me it is quite cleat that the le is desgined to be as inclusive as possible.
(00:50:26) dalibor: so if it works for, say, jamaica, it shouldn't be a porblem for a free softare vm ;)
(00:50:57) wasabi: ANd it's not like they need to make a VM either.
(00:51:00) wasabi: We only have what, 12?
(00:51:10) theBohemian: well is it bad to ask for some compromise on the ASF's side?
(00:51:13) wasabi: They all suffer from some problem sure.
(00:51:16) wasabi: Just pick one!
(00:52:00) wasabi: http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2005/May-07.html
(00:52:33) dalibor: wasabi: aournd 24.
(00:53:29) tromey: hey, now we'll be more viable
(00:53:34) tromey: I'm glad to hear that
(00:53:39) wasabi: viable or visible?
(00:53:58) pinskia: both :)
(00:53:58) tromey: viable.  something mig. said
(00:54:58) theBohemian: geirm: wasabi said ASF always releases under AL, is that true? someone on the incubator list said it is possible to license stuff under modern-BSD, X11 licenses, too?
(00:55:39) dims: theBohemian: what's the use case? if i may ask?
(00:55:49) wasabi: geirm and our POV is that we don't distribute software that has more restrictions on the user than the apache license
(00:55:54) wasabi: guess that's it.
(00:56:09) dims: so we have to reconcile the text of the 2 licenses. right?
(00:56:28) geirm: wasabi: :D
(00:56:36) geirm: sorry - I'll read the log and get abck to you
(00:56:37) wasabi: So, after 45 minutes.
(00:56:41) geirm: my dinner guest showed up
(00:56:42) wasabi: I'm still convinced it's a licensing issue. ;)
(00:57:47) dims: wasabi: is there a reason you can't use xalan/xerces in classpath?
(00:57:47) dalibor: dims: code that would be able to end up directly in kaffe
(00:57:55) dalibor: or vice versa.
(00:57:56) geirm: yes, there is a *huge* licensing issue
(00:58:04) dalibor: dims: yes.
(00:58:18) dalibor: it doesn't mix well with pure gpl.
(00:58:21) dims: that is that one line in ASL 2.0 that deals with patent expiry?
(00:58:24) dalibor: so i couldn'T ship it.
(00:58:27) dalibor: yes.
(00:58:30) dalibor: that's all.
(00:58:34) dalibor: sucks endlessly.
(00:58:45) dalibor: ;)
(00:58:53) wasabi: Hey I'm not defending classpath's license.
(00:58:59) dims: hehe
(00:59:01) wasabi: Frankly I don't care one bit. I just want free Java done.
(00:59:18) dalibor: wasabi: when I am done with java, it will be free.
(00:59:20) dims: we want to as well. and we fully intend to use CLASSPATH as we are lazy :)
(00:59:23) dalibor: oh boy.
(00:59:47) dims: so...aren't we violently in agreement? :)
(00:59:49) dalibor: it better be free or I'll teach it some freedom. ;)
(01:00:03) dalibor: well, you guys need to that apache infighting thing.
(01:00:06) dalibor: ;)
(01:00:10) dims: hehe
(01:00:19) dims: back in 15 mins.
(01:00:21) dalibor: and I eventually need to subscribe to bring some reason to it.
(01:00:33) dims: www.google.com went missing...
(01:00:39) wasabi: If a bunch of smart people are about to ditch classpath and reimplement the entire thing, and they're serious about it, then we need to get them working on our thing instead. ;)
(01:00:42) dalibor: so far I've been just reading the archives and chuckling.
(01:01:03) dalibor: wasabi: hey, we got the ASF infected with the VM bug.
(01:01:20) dalibor: now, the classpath bug just naturlally propagates along.
(01:01:24) dims: wasabi: anthony from redhat mentioned that whatever gets done in harmony needs to be pushed upstream to classpath. and no one disagreeed :)
(01:01:25) dalibor: ;)
(01:01:32) dalibor: yeah, that was cool.
(01:01:34) wasabi: oh haha.
(01:01:53) wasabi: the thing is harmony will spend the first 3 years working on java.lang
(01:01:56) wasabi: which we've already got
(01:02:14) pinskia: holly shit google is dead
(01:02:23) wasabi: http://216.239.39.99/
(01:02:27) wasabi: always have a backup
(01:02:39) wasabi: that is pretty amazing though
(01:02:45) geirm: I'll be back in a bit - dinner guests here
(01:02:47) geirm: thanks for the chat
(01:02:49) geirm: we will continue
(01:17:24) theBohemian: maybe ASF should adopt sable :)
(01:17:45) theBohemian: after all it names itself already the "apache of the free vm"
(01:18:14) barryh hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "leaving").
(01:20:24) tromey: hahaha
(01:53:22) tromey: I read through /. a bit; waste of time really
(01:54:17) dalibor: rotfl
(01:54:28) dalibor: theBohemian: don'T mention the war!
(01:54:40) dalibor: ;)
(01:54:45) tromey: I did learn there is a jvm->parrot converter
(01:57:15) tromey: I wonder how real parrot is
(01:59:49) avdyk hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "sleep").
(02:05:22) theBohemian: dalibor: can you explain to me how talks between GNU and Apache people began?
(02:05:35) theBohemian: dalibor: was this all because of gump?
(02:06:25) dalibor: kaffe ;)
(02:06:37) dalibor: kaffe lead to gump.
(02:06:45) dalibor: gump lead to rest.
(02:07:18) dalibor: and I think it was dims and stefano mazzochi that babyset me through a gump install
(02:07:27) dalibor: so from there tings progressed rapidly.
(02:07:33) theBohemian: would you say this was an action between GNU and Apache people?
(02:07:40) dalibor: defintely.
(02:07:46) theBohemian: great!
(02:07:58) dalibor: well, i am not really a GNU someone, but ... ahem.
(02:08:03) dalibor: yeah.
(02:08:13) dalibor: waering my non.existant GNU hat.
(02:08:16) dalibor: ;)
(02:08:43) dalibor: kaffe is just at those things.
(02:09:07) dalibor: sucky enough not to notice, it suddenly makes problems out of simple things, and gets people together ;)
(02:09:10) dalibor: like ... uh...
(02:09:16) dalibor: garbage collection!
(02:09:19) dalibor: ;)
(02:13:34) dalibor: "We're honored to have you as speaker for the sixth edition of the International Free Software Forum."
(02:13:37) dalibor: ok.
(02:13:44) dalibor: crap. 
(02:13:46) Seatherrage [~seather@149.169.84.246] hat den Raum betreten.
(02:13:54) dalibor: this stuff is really moving very fast.
(02:14:12) dalibor: hi Seatherrage
(02:14:24) dalibor: s/crap/great
(02:14:33) tromey: heh
(02:14:36) tromey: what is that forum?
(02:14:45) theBohemian: dalibor: fine
(02:14:49) theBohemian: yeah what is it?
(02:14:52) Seatherrage: hi, just looking around for all the gcj docs i can find
(02:15:01) theBohemian: dont forget to bring you GNU hat ;)
(02:15:07) dalibor: haha
(02:15:14) tromey: most docs are online at gcc.gnu.org/java/
(02:15:25) Seatherrage: rgr
(02:15:26) tromey: there's like one useful page in the wiki, too
(02:15:55) dalibor: http://www.softwarelivre.org/news/3886
(02:16:35) dalibor: i mean 
(02:16:39) dalibor: http://fisl.softwarelivre.org/6.0/index.php?language=en
(02:17:15) tromey: cool
(02:17:23) dalibor: yeah, very much so,
(02:17:31) dalibor: this time around i need to demo some stuff.
(02:17:42) dalibor: then the ASF will know to just use gnu classpath ;)
(02:17:51) tromey: :-)
(02:17:54) dalibor: screenies abviously left some doubts ;)
(02:18:08) tromey: they were probably faked
(02:18:10) tromey: like the moon landing
(02:18:16) dalibor: hahahÃ
(02:18:26) dalibor: just like that, yeah
(02:18:33) dalibor: unicorn one
(02:18:38) dalibor: or capricorn?
(02:18:51) tromey: capricorn
(02:18:54) tromey: actually I never saw that moive
(02:18:55) tromey: movie
(02:19:07) dalibor: kind of funny in a weird way.
(02:19:27) theBohemian: dalibor: I have converted frozen-bubble applet to sdljava. runs fine in jamvm now. :)
(02:19:28) dalibor: westworld scenery meets bizarre non-sci-fi-sci-fi
(02:19:35) tromey: yeah
(02:19:59) theBohemian: dalibor: however it isnt an applet any more ... ;)
(02:20:04) dalibor: hehe
(02:23:56) tromey: hmm, perhaps mjw and green already explained the case for classpath
(02:31:28) dalibor: tromey: url?
(02:32:10) tromey: I don't have one offhand
(02:32:15) tromey: just their notes to the harmony list
(02:32:21) tromey: I wonder if I should bother saying more
(02:34:06) Twiun: don't think it'll accomplish anything?
(02:34:09) theBohemian: what should I think about this bileblog guy (http://www.jroller.com/page/fate). Is that just satiric or he is really a tomfool?
(02:39:01) tromey: hard to say
(02:39:11) tromey: Twiun: yeah, or will just repeat what's already been said
(02:39:18) tromey: still thinking about it
(02:42:10) dalibor: theBohemian: he's a bit enjoying his feces throwing fame excessively.
(02:42:12) dalibor: ignore.
(02:42:25) dalibor: he's pleasant in real life, thogh.
(02:43:25) Twiun: tromey: maybe start collecting summaries/comments and see if they haven't been addressed by next week
(02:52:05) dalibor: well, global thermonuclear holocaust is always an option.
(02:52:10) dalibor: ;)
(02:59:11) z|away: shredstar: Yes.  But for the app where I needed a big grid, I went with c++ and wx.
(02:59:20) z|away: wrong chan, oops.
(02:59:37) Twiun: hmmm, wx bindings for Classpath
(02:59:41) Twiun: z|away: great idea!
(02:59:56) Twiun: z|away: and thanks for volunteering :)
(03:00:15) z|away: wx is LGPL.. I don't need the heat. :)
(03:00:41) tromey: so is gtk
(03:00:58) dalibor: yeah, lgpl is fine for us.
(03:01:07) dalibor: jrl is not, thogh ;)
(03:01:12) tromey: I wonder if awt bindings could be written for something like wx
(03:01:13) tromey: what is jrl?
(03:01:16) tromey: oh, right
(03:01:17) tromey: never mind
(03:01:20) dalibor: hehe
(03:01:34) tromey: awt bindings need to do a lot of event interception as I recall
(03:01:38) dalibor: i'm sure there must be some cutsie name for that too,
(03:01:39) tromey: (not having hacked on them in years)
(03:01:42) dalibor: jarlie, or something.
(03:01:48) tromey: which a high-level wrapper may not allow, dunno
(03:11:33) theBohemian: dalibor: can you check this http://pastebin.ca/11200
(03:14:28) dalibor: zwischen den Organisationen
(03:14:57) dalibor: ZerwÃrfnis ist emotional.
(03:15:30) dalibor: ich wuerde sagen 'Schwierigkeiten'
(03:15:44) theBohemian: good
(03:15:58) dalibor: Das taufrische Apache Harmony befindet sich momentan auf der Suche nach dem Sinn. ;)
(03:16:32) theBohemian: AFAIK geir asked for developers ...
(03:16:43) dalibor: oh, ok,
(03:17:03) dalibor: i thought it was going to be more like discussing things for a few days.
(03:18:02) theBohemian: see point 16 of the "FAQ" (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200505.mbox/%3cE3603144-2C26-4C31-896D-6CC7445A63EB@apache.org%3e)
(03:18:33) theBohemian: yeah ok it a bit about discussion ... changes that
(03:23:31) jvic [~jvic@201.12.52.29] hat den Raum betreten.
(03:23:43) dalibor: hi jvic
(03:23:54) jvic: heya
(03:24:06) jvic: so, have you heard about Apache's "Harmony"?
(03:24:11) Twiun heißt nun Twiun[away]
(03:24:38) theBohemian: ;)
(03:24:47) theBohemian: poor dalibor
(03:24:52) jvic: lol
(03:25:16) theBohemian: I think I was the second one asking him about harmony.
(03:25:21) jvic: ok, probably zillions of people have asked you that... you must be tired already, lol
(03:25:31) jvic: :D
(03:25:53) dalibor: haha
(03:26:15) dalibor: no, actually ever since 7 h this morning.
(03:26:30) theBohemian: http://rafb.net/paste/results/twPYJI90.html
(03:26:40) dalibor: so this is my 20th hour of harmony talking.
(03:26:44) dalibor: thanks theBohemian!
(03:26:59) dalibor: jvic: the url sort of sums things up.
(03:27:01) jvic: lol