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Jun 14 01:48:39 <sylarr>	hello
Jun 14 01:48:48 <bierdopjeeee>	hi sylarr
Jun 14 01:49:05 <sylarr>	I am wondering about "the god gene"
Jun 14 01:49:23 <sylarr>	would you mind a survey?
Jun 14 01:50:31 <sylarr>	(number of spiritual parents ; number of spiritual brothers; number of brothers ) ?
Jun 14 01:50:48 <sylarr>	s/brothers/siblings
Jun 14 01:50:52 <sylarr>	?
Jun 14 01:52:28 <bierdopjeeee>	sorry can't help you with that
Jun 14 01:53:30 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, why not? are you not atheist?
Jun 14 01:53:35 <realityiswhere>	sylarr, I have two spiritual parents, one sibling, no spiritual siblings.
Jun 14 01:53:54 <bierdopjeeee>	I know nothing of the subject
Jun 14 01:54:06 <sylarr>	ah
Jun 14 01:54:33 <sylarr>	one sibling is the total number of children that your parents has?
Jun 14 01:54:53 <realityiswhere>	sibling does not mean the same as children.
Jun 14 01:55:59 <realityiswhere>	myself, and my brother, both atheists.  religious parents.
Jun 14 01:56:17 <sylarr>	ok, that is what a I want to know
Jun 14 01:56:32 <MrAristo>	sylarr, (2;1;1)
Jun 14 01:57:37 <sylarr>	thanks MrAristo 
Jun 14 01:57:51 <MrAristo>	Mind if I ask what it's for?
Jun 14 01:58:10 <sylarr>	(2;1;4)
Jun 14 01:59:17 *	GrandDanois is now known as LoveLoveLove
Jun 14 01:59:19 <slashus2>	(2;1;1)
Jun 14 02:03:18 <sylarr>	thans slashus2 
Jun 14 02:03:51 <sylarr>	I think it would be interesting to know too if it is possible for two atheists to have a spiritual offspring
Jun 14 02:04:22 <MrAristo>	Of course it is.
Jun 14 02:04:49 <sylarr>	MrAristo, do you know such cases?
Jun 14 02:05:02 <MrAristo>	Atheism nor spirituality is not genetic.
Jun 14 02:05:14 <MrAristo>	Err: is genetic
Jun 14 02:05:23 <MrAristo>	Err: Is not
Jun 14 02:05:36 <MrAristo>	Err: I've already fucked this one up.
Jun 14 02:05:48 <MrAristo>	Not personally, no.
Jun 14 02:06:21 <sylarr>	MrAristo, it is possible that it is impossible
Jun 14 02:07:17 <MrAristo>	But improbable that it is impossible.
Jun 14 02:07:21 <bierdopjeeee>	I would think everyone starts out as atheist. As you don't know of the specific claims of theists yet.
Jun 14 02:07:22 <sylarr>	as we see here , it is likely that spiritual parents will have a non-spiritual offspring
Jun 14 02:07:42 <MrAristo>	bierdopjeeee, Correct.
Jun 14 02:09:19 <MrAristo>	sylarr, I don't think anyone ever questioned that.
Jun 14 02:09:41 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, Everyone are exposed in some point or another at their life to spiritual ideas. Like God, ghosts, fairies.
Jun 14 02:10:08 <bierdopjeeee>	I don't think you can claim such a thing with certainty
Jun 14 02:10:09 <MrAristo>	Ghosts and fairies are spiritual now?
Jun 14 02:10:35 <realityiswhere>	There's a major difference between being exposed to something, taking up an interest in it, learning about it on your own and indoctrination from parents as "This is your religion".
Jun 14 02:10:45 <sylarr>	MrAristo, there is no evidence to them
Jun 14 02:10:53 <bierdopjeeee>	What is 'spiritual offspring' any way?
Jun 14 02:12:16 <MrAristo>	sylarr, There's no evidence of invisible mind-sucking insect over-lords either.  I hardly think that would be considered spiritual as well.
Jun 14 02:12:25 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, what I was starting to say earlier, is that every one are exposed to these ideas, but some reject them, and some embrace them. Who embrace these ideas are considered spiritual 
Jun 14 02:13:31 <bierdopjeeee>	One can embrace an endless rain of "spiritual" idea's, but I don't see the point. Those are just idea's.
Jun 14 02:13:37 <realityiswhere>	does your study factor in forced indoctrination by parents sylarr?
Jun 14 02:14:18 <sylarr>	MrAristo, if someone believe X when there is no evidence, I consider it ""spiritual"". call it sylar-spiritual if it overloads your common definition of spiritual
Jun 14 02:14:48 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, not yet
Jun 14 02:14:54 <MrAristo>	realityiswhere, Parents can be apaathetic, and the forced indoctrination can come from the community.  Less likely, but possible.
Jun 14 02:15:05 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, what are the (;;) figures for you ?
Jun 14 02:15:38 <MrAristo>	sylarr, Overloads?  Hardly.  Defies common convention and usage?  Yes.
Jun 14 02:16:06 <MrAristo>	However, I see your point and I'll play along with the words for arguments sake.
Jun 14 02:16:28 <sylarr>	k, thanks
Jun 14 02:16:57 <realityiswhere>	(2;0;1)
Jun 14 02:17:27 <sylarr>	MrAristo, I mean overloads in the computer programming sense of writing two different functions with the same name but different parameters
Jun 14 02:17:45 <sylarr>	parameters types/number
Jun 14 02:18:09 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, so you are spiritual ?
Jun 14 02:18:28 <realityiswhere>	no.. i think you're misunderstanding the meaning of the word sibling
Jun 14 02:19:55 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, enlighten me 
Jun 14 02:20:00 <realityiswhere>	2 spiritual parents, 0 spiritual children, 2 children.
Jun 14 02:20:11 <realityiswhere>	i have 2 spiritual parents, 0 spiritual siblings, 1 sibling.
Jun 14 02:20:21 <realityiswhere>	a sibling is a brother or a sister, not the same as the word children
Jun 14 02:20:33 <fleebailey33>	:)
Jun 14 02:20:41 <realityiswhere>	flee gets me ;)
Jun 14 02:20:53 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, if someone asks how many siblings are you at the house, what do you answer?
Jun 14 02:21:18 <realityiswhere>	i would say 1, for I have only one sibling.
Jun 14 02:21:27 <fleebailey33>	realityiswhere: you can't have kids
Jun 14 02:21:32 <MrAristo>	Same here.
Jun 14 02:21:32 <fleebailey33>	you would have to like girls
Jun 14 02:21:33 <realityiswhere>	but that word isn't properly used in the context you just used it sylarr
Jun 14 02:21:35 <fleebailey33>	so therefore
Jun 14 02:21:36 <fleebailey33>	sibling
Jun 14 02:21:38 <fleebailey33>	brother
Jun 14 02:22:33 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, anyway what I ment by siblings is that you include yourself in that math
Jun 14 02:22:42 <sylarr>	fleebailey33, numbers?
Jun 14 02:22:47 <realityiswhere>	very well, (2;0;2)
Jun 14 02:23:07 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, but that means that you are spiritual
Jun 14 02:23:24 <sylarr>	right?
Jun 14 02:23:27 <realityiswhere>	you said the formula was: (number of spiritual parents ; number of spiritual brothers; number of brothers )
Jun 14 02:23:42 <fleebailey33>	realityiswhere: just say your spiritual so he will stfu
Jun 14 02:23:44 <realityiswhere>	2 spiritual parents, 0 spiritual children/siblings/brothers, 2 brothers.
Jun 14 02:24:15 <realityiswhere>	that does not mean i'm spiritual
Jun 14 02:24:33 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, ok , i will rephrase for u
Jun 14 02:24:39 *	fleebailey33 face palms
Jun 14 02:25:42 <bierdopjeeee>	Would be (1;0;2), (1 spiritual parent; 0 spiritual childeren; 2 childeren) for me
Jun 14 02:25:58 <sylarr>	(number of spiritual parents ; number of spiritual children that your parents has ; total number of children that your parents has ) ?
Jun 14 02:26:06 <realityiswhere>	same thing
Jun 14 02:26:13 <realityiswhere>	(2;0;2)
Jun 14 02:26:24 <fleebailey33>	realityiswhere: just kill your brother
Jun 14 02:26:27 <fleebailey33>	end the discussion
Jun 14 02:26:32 <bierdopjeeee>	hehehe
Jun 14 02:26:33 <realityiswhere>	yeah i planned it at one point.
Jun 14 02:26:57 <fleebailey33>	my little brother is cool
Jun 14 02:27:01 <fleebailey33>	realityiswhere: he isn't gay
Jun 14 02:27:05 <realityiswhere>	heh
Jun 14 02:27:11 <fleebailey33>	at least he shows some interest in girls
Jun 14 02:27:17 <fleebailey33>	doesnt mean he doesnt like guys...
Jun 14 02:30:47 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, my bad
Jun 14 02:31:06 <realityiswhere>	no prob, glad it's clear now though lol
Jun 14 02:32:07 <sylarr>	I assume MrAristo , and slashus2 second figure should have been 0
Jun 14 02:32:34 <sylarr>	I got confused over that it seems
Jun 14 02:33:01 <slashus2>	I have a sibling that is religion and my parent's are religious, but I am not.
Jun 14 02:33:08 <bierdopjeeee>	Why?
Jun 14 02:33:33 <bierdopjeeee>	oeps, nevermind , chat did not scroll because of me dragging scrollbar :P
Jun 14 02:33:48 <MrAristo>	sylarr, No, I was right the first time.
Jun 14 02:34:04 <sylarr>	MrAristo, so you are spiritual then?
Jun 14 02:34:05 <MrAristo>	I typically am as well.
Jun 14 02:34:10 <MrAristo>	No.
Jun 14 02:34:45 <sylarr>	MrAristo, " number of spiritual brothers"
Jun 14 02:34:52 <sylarr>	1?
Jun 14 02:35:06 <MrAristo>	(2 spiritual parents; 1 spiritual sibling; 1 sibling)
Jun 14 02:35:19 <MrAristo>	I cannot count myself as a sibling.
Jun 14 02:35:44 <MrAristo>	Therefore, my two parents had two children.
Jun 14 02:36:13 <MrAristo>	Further questions?
Jun 14 02:36:16 <sylarr>	ok, but I seem to have used the word siblings improperly
Jun 14 02:36:24 <bierdopjeeee>	two parents?
Jun 14 02:36:34 <sylarr>	I meant total number including yourself
Jun 14 02:36:49 <sylarr>	MrAristo, ^
Jun 14 02:37:11 <realityiswhere>	then his would be 2;1;2
Jun 14 02:37:23 <MrAristo>	bierdopjeeee, One male, one female.  Typical way such things work.
Jun 14 02:37:44 <sylarr>	MrAristo, except jesus
Jun 14 02:37:55 <MrAristo>	realityiswhere, I was going to leave that as an exercise for sylarr, but yes, that's right.
Jun 14 02:38:06 <bierdopjeeee>	;P
Jun 14 02:38:09 <realityiswhere>	;)
Jun 14 02:38:33 <sylarr>	hey, I am trying to figure stuff out :/ 
Jun 14 02:38:47 <MrAristo>	sylarr, He's an exception why?
Jun 14 02:39:41 <sylarr>	MrAristo, because he was a single parent child
Jun 14 02:40:18 <sylarr>	MrAristo, of a virgin :F
Jun 14 02:41:05 <sylarr>	I need to find an atheist couple with a spiritual child now
Jun 14 02:42:09 <MrAristo>	sylarr, Other than one old book that has undergone numberous revisions there is nothing to suggest such.  Human biology also seems to disagree.
Jun 14 02:42:20 <sylarr>	you all have small families, I don't know how I can infer anything from these numbers :/
Jun 14 02:43:22 <sylarr>	MrAristo, you don't need to convince me
Jun 14 02:45:21 <MrAristo>	I think you main problem with drawing a conclusion based on the numbers you currently have would be a small sample size, but not small families in the sample.
Jun 14 02:45:25 <bierdopjeeee>	I don't see the point in this survey :p
Jun 14 02:45:28 <MrAristo>	Err: your
Jun 14 02:45:48 <bierdopjeeee>	*of
Jun 14 02:46:42 <slashus2>	sylarr: Make sure your survey is at least 30 or so.
Jun 14 02:47:06 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, the point is to find out if there is a hereditary characteristics to being spiritual, non-spiritual
Jun 14 02:47:51 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, I am checking if maybe atheism is a recessive gene
Jun 14 02:48:20 <sylarr>	and if so , then all of us has 100% of that gene
Jun 14 02:48:43 <sylarr>	while our parents all have 50% or 100% of it
Jun 14 02:49:36 <sylarr>	in which case it will be impossible for atheists to have a spiritual child
Jun 14 02:49:36 <bierdopjeeee>	50% of a gene?
Jun 14 02:49:46 <sylarr>	1 out of 2
Jun 14 02:49:51 <bierdopjeeee>	right
Jun 14 02:50:49 <sylarr>	but here I can ask about it only if some of us have children with other atheists 
Jun 14 02:51:00 <slashus2>	sylarr: I think you are oversimplifying it.  Rarely are things controlled by one gene.  If anything it would be polymorphic.
Jun 14 02:51:18 <slashus2>	Skin color is controlled by at least 6 or 7 genes.
Jun 14 02:51:38 <sylarr>	slashus2, damn :(
Jun 14 02:52:46 <sylarr>	slashus2, although it is possible that all 7 genes for atheism are recessive, and then again empirically two atheists can only have atheist children
Jun 14 02:53:18 <slashus2>	To make sure it was genetic, you would have to isolate the sociological component, which would be hard to do in practice.  Children tend to listen to what their parents have to say.  This will influence what the child thinks.  Childhood indoctrination is a large part of religious societies.. I think.
Jun 14 02:54:06 <realityiswhere>	I find it extremely illogical that the entirety of believing/non-believing can even be specifically associated to genetics.
Jun 14 02:55:12 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, it could be , just like mental illnesses are attributed to genetics
Jun 14 02:55:45 <bierdopjeeee>	metal ilnesses are no claims though
Jun 14 02:55:57 <slashus2>	realityiswhere, sylarr: If it is, it will be a mixture between societal influences and genetics.
Jun 14 02:56:00 <sylarr>	realityiswhere, ?
Jun 14 02:56:29 <sylarr>	sorry realityiswhere , I meant bierdopjeeee 
Jun 14 02:57:48 <sylarr>	If someone thinks that he is being transmitted thoughts...
Jun 14 02:57:50 *	LoveLoveLove is now known as HAL9000
Jun 14 02:58:12 <sylarr>	or that God talks to him
Jun 14 02:58:25 *	HAL9000 is now known as LoveLoveLove
Jun 14 02:58:37 <sylarr>	or feel God's presence
Jun 14 02:58:47 <sylarr>	or ghosts presence
Jun 14 02:58:53 <sylarr>	or just paranoid
Jun 14 02:59:33 <sylarr>	I think it could have to do with the structure of his brain, and its biology,and genetics affects it
Jun 14 03:00:44 <slashus2>	sylarr: The ubiquitousness of certain ideas, ever how convoluted, can lead people to think some pretty strange things:  Astrology and homeopathy being two examples.
Jun 14 03:01:22 <bierdopjeeee>	yes, but still. There are other methods of confirming such "spiritual feelings" one could have. Such a person does not have to _become_ an theist.
Jun 14 03:01:57 <bierdopjeeee>	*a
Jun 14 03:03:41 <bierdopjeeee>	If I hear voices in a room while nobody is there. We can test for that. And I can change my opinon about what I am experiencing is real or not.
Jun 14 03:05:23 <slashus2>	I think the theist answer will be that of special pleading.
Jun 14 03:07:16 <sylarr>	?
Jun 14 03:08:12 <slashus2>	Science can't measure the voices in my head, or what have you.
Jun 14 03:08:38 <slashus2>	The NOMA answer.
Jun 14 03:09:33 <bierdopjeeee>	If I think I hear the voice of Zeus and a couple of  persons next to me do not hear this voice, I would seriously have to doubt my self. Cause still unknown at that time.
Jun 14 03:09:56 <slashus2>	I would too.
Jun 14 03:10:27 <slashus2>	I would not trust my eyes so to speak.  Hallucinations are too likely of an explanation.
Jun 14 03:10:57 <bierdopjeeee>	It could have simply been some voice I had not heard before.. comming from wherever
Jun 14 03:12:09 <man_in_shack>	like abraham and isaac
Jun 14 03:12:15 <man_in_shack>	"kill your son!" "ok"
Jun 14 03:12:23 <bierdopjeeee>	In short I don't think there is something like spiritual childeren
Jun 14 03:13:03 <man_in_shack>	there are calls to categorise extreme religious fanaticism as mental illness
Jun 14 03:13:29 <man_in_shack>	e.g. the death of the diabetic kid who's parents believed that prayer was the cure
Jun 14 03:13:57 <man_in_shack>	and mental illnesses can be associated with genetics
Jun 14 03:14:17 <man_in_shack>	but i doubt there is an "atheist" gene
Jun 14 03:14:22 <bierdopjeeee>	More likely would be that childeren know very little and create unjustified assumptions to continue in a practical world.
Jun 14 03:14:43 <man_in_shack>	possibly genes that control resistance to indoctrination, logical thought, reason-based decisions etc
Jun 14 03:15:03 <sylarr>	lets take doctors for example
Jun 14 03:15:14 <sylarr>	do you believe in doctors?
Jun 14 03:15:17 <man_in_shack>	no
Jun 14 03:15:37 <realityiswhere>	No need, there's proof they exist.
Jun 14 03:15:40 <man_in_shack>	they are a myth created by the drug companies to sell more paracetamol
Jun 14 03:15:49 <bierdopjeeee>	:P
Jun 14 03:15:50 <man_in_shack>	realityiswhere, LIES, ALL LIES
Jun 14 03:16:00 <bierdopjeeee>	==Do you believe in people.
Jun 14 03:16:03 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, I am with you
Jun 14 03:16:16 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, i'm playing the devil's advocate here
Jun 14 03:16:57 <man_in_shack>	i mean, after i've had my appendix and wisdom teeth out, and been diagnosed with chronic fatigue, i'd sure hope it wasn't all being done by a guy who thinks leeches are the new hot thing in medicine
Jun 14 03:17:16 <sylarr>	Most people believe that doctor  help people out of disease  and injury 
Jun 14 03:17:23 *	realityiswhere still has his appendix/wisdom teeth.
Jun 14 03:18:01 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, what's your point?
Jun 14 03:18:29 <sylarr>	But most problems doctors don't know , and 100% of the people die eventually after a very short time on the planet
Jun 14 03:18:33 <man_in_shack>	when you have universities teaching medicine, the idea of "help, not harm" documented as far back into history as the ancient greeks
Jun 14 03:19:07 <man_in_shack>	advanced (for the time) medicines being practised in ancient egypt ...
Jun 14 03:19:22 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, define "very short time"
Jun 14 03:19:31 <sylarr>	100 years
Jun 14 03:19:48 <bierdopjeeee>	I don't get the point sylarr, is there a point?
Jun 14 03:20:08 <bierdopjeeee>	One does not "believe" in a doctor. We defined the word doctor.
Jun 14 03:20:11 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, btw, did they cure your chronic fatigue?
Jun 14 03:20:31 <Nicholas>	all sounds very fatalistic to me
Jun 14 03:20:36 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, I meant the doctors ability to cure
Jun 14 03:20:55 <bierdopjeeee>	Then I do not get your point ;P
Jun 14 03:21:18 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, no
Jun 14 03:21:19 <slashus2>	The doctor's ability to cure is based on the current state of scientific medicine.  It is in an ongoing process of improvement, which means that doctors don't know everything.
Jun 14 03:21:20 <bierdopjeeee>	Docters do their best to cure people, what about it?
Jun 14 03:21:29 <man_in_shack>	but they gave me tips on how to reduce its effects
Jun 14 03:21:42 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, did they cure your malignant cancer?
Jun 14 03:21:54 <sylarr>	bierdopjeeee, the point is that people believe stuff , even atheists, the question is what happens to them when reality disagree with their beliefs
Jun 14 03:22:07 <man_in_shack>	medicine, being a science, freely admits that not everything is known
Jun 14 03:22:08 <slashus2>	The efficacy of medical doctor's treatments is the reason we take them seriously.  If something works in the real world, we are more likely to see it as credible.
Jun 14 03:22:10 <Nicholas>	Doctors do cure things, just not everything
Jun 14 03:22:24 <Nicholas>	many things they don't, but they don't claim to be able to
Jun 14 03:22:26 <bierdopjeeee>	sooner or later the believe gets ajusted to reality
Jun 14 03:22:29 <man_in_shack>	i had a potentially fatal condition
Jun 14 03:22:32 <Nicholas>	(not good doctors, anyhow)
Jun 14 03:22:51 <man_in_shack>	went to the hospital at 6am, said "I HAS PAIN" and they set me up with painkillers
Jun 14 03:23:05 <man_in_shack>	throughout the day, i underwent a series of test
Jun 14 03:23:12 <bierdopjeeee>	One only has to believe as long as that person does not know.
Jun 14 03:23:26 <man_in_shack>	after an ultrasound, they decided it was either gall stones or appendicitis. they didn't know
Jun 14 03:24:04 <man_in_shack>	they also decided to put me under the knife, even if it was just exploratory surgery
Jun 14 03:24:15 <Nicholas>	They cured my malignant cancer~
Jun 14 03:24:18 <Nicholas>	:D
Jun 14 03:24:24 <man_in_shack>	so i spoke to a surgeon, gave him as much detail as i could of my symptoms
Jun 14 03:24:54 <man_in_shack>	and he said "even without looking at the ultrasound, which i haven't seen yet, you have a 99% probability that it's appendicitis"
Jun 14 03:25:43 <man_in_shack>	so after going through the standard "this could go drastically wrong", they cut me open (keyhole surgery) and a few hours later i woke up in incredible pain
Jun 14 03:26:06 <man_in_shack>	ended up being able to sleep thanks to the night nurse who gave me more morphine
Jun 14 03:26:45 <man_in_shack>	but one of my incisions was bleeding a lot, to the point that it was clotting over the bandage
Jun 14 03:26:47 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, you are lucky that you had one of the things they know to treat
Jun 14 03:27:14 <man_in_shack>	i believe the night nurse spotted that and they stitched it up
Jun 14 03:27:35 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, i'm trying to give you an idea of how things work
Jun 14 03:27:43 <bierdopjeeee>	sylarr: indeed
Jun 14 03:27:45 <man_in_shack>	it's not "come here and we'll cure you"
Jun 14 03:28:19 <man_in_shack>	the patient has a responsibility to give the professionals (doctors, surgeons, nurses etc) as much detail as possible of the symptoms
Jun 14 03:28:19 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, it is not even come here and we will do our best to cure you
Jun 14 03:28:41 <slashus2>	sylarr: Based on what?  What is your point here?
Jun 14 03:28:53 <man_in_shack>	then they can make a best guess at what your problem is based on current medical and scientific knowledge
Jun 14 03:29:09 <man_in_shack>	GPs will forward you to specialists if they need to
Jun 14 03:29:22 *	Sephr (n=elijah@c-68-38-250-93.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined ##atheists
Jun 14 03:29:26 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, it is come here and if it is easy , and not require too much thought or time we will try to cure you , no promises
Jun 14 03:29:47 <man_in_shack>	sometimes you get "you have a problem with your throat. go see mr bobson. he's an ear/nose/throat specialist"
Jun 14 03:30:02 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, no it's not
Jun 14 03:30:32 <man_in_shack>	it is "come here and we'll see what your problem is. we'll listen to you and perform tests. then, if there's something we can fix for you, we will do our best to fix it"
Jun 14 03:30:33 <slashus2>	sylarr: Your lack of confidence in medical science hints at a bad experience in the past?
Jun 14 03:31:33 <slashus2>	Which can not be applied to all medical practices.
Jun 14 03:31:51 <bierdopjeeee>	Of course there are way less doctors than patients, so it is logical that due to time and economical and political reaons, things go wrong.
Jun 14 03:32:07 <bierdopjeeee>	*reasons
Jun 14 03:33:16 <sylarr>	anyway the point is that there is a difference between believing something, that you don't know, but you were told about it good things, and between continuing to believe in it when there is no evidence of it being true, or with evidence to the opposite
Jun 14 03:33:25 <bierdopjeeee>	even the docters themseves are patients :P
Jun 14 03:34:09 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, are you saying there is no evidence that medicine is a positive thing?
Jun 14 03:34:37 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, I am saying GP's are not a good thing
Jun 14 03:34:49 <man_in_shack>	fantastic
Jun 14 03:34:58 <sylarr>	it would be much better if all the funds would have gone to research
Jun 14 03:35:18 <sylarr>	and instead of GP's they would train nurses to give you the antibiotics
Jun 14 03:35:18 <bierdopjeeee>	>> time
Jun 14 03:35:23 <slashus2>	GP's are like the root node in a branching tree.  If they can't fix your problem, you are transferred to someone who may be able to help you more.
Jun 14 03:35:34 <man_in_shack>	so then you go to your local research doctor, and he tells you he has no time for you
Jun 14 03:35:50 <sylarr>	lol
Jun 14 03:35:51 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, how old are you?
Jun 14 03:35:54 <sylarr>	exactly
Jun 14 03:35:57 <sylarr>	33
Jun 14 03:36:05 <man_in_shack>	you sound like you're 20 years younger
Jun 14 03:36:18 <sylarr>	o, thank you
Jun 14 03:36:25 <bierdopjeeee>	How did you get sound out of sylarr :P ?
Jun 14 03:36:29 <sylarr>	is it my spelling errors, and bad english?
Jun 14 03:36:44 <slashus2>	Antibiotics are not applicable in many instances.  They should be used as sparingly as possible.. especially with resistant bacteria.
Jun 14 03:37:07 <man_in_shack>	GPs fix the most common problems. "you have a sniffle? let's try to work out if it's viral or bacterial ... it's bacterial! good, that means amoxicillan should clear it up quickly. here's a prescription for you to take to your pharmacist"
Jun 14 03:37:09 <sylarr>	slashus2, nurses can take care of that
Jun 14 03:37:11 <slashus2>	And definitely not for colds and flu.
Jun 14 03:37:19 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, it's your attitude
Jun 14 03:37:45 <man_in_shack>	nurses cannot judge when antibiotics are applicable or not
Jun 14 03:37:47 <tryto>	ooh
Jun 14 03:37:52 <sylarr>	nurses can send you to a blood test just as GPs
Jun 14 03:37:53 <man_in_shack>	doctors get that training, not nurses
Jun 14 03:37:59 <tryto>	do we have someone who thinks western medicine is useless pointless and harmful?
Jun 14 03:38:21 <sylarr>	tryto, right here
Jun 14 03:38:23 <bierdopjeeee>	I don't see how this survey will get you any thing useful though, since people can change their mind at any point of time, if enough evidence is present, or even without if one really wishes too :P
Jun 14 03:38:24 <slashus2>	tryto: Someone who thinks that nurses should replace GP.
Jun 14 03:38:30 <tryto>	yay, I needed a laugh today.
Jun 14 03:38:58 <man_in_shack>	i don't think nurses have the jurisdiction to send patients for blood tests
Jun 14 03:39:15 <man_in_shack>	they can administer blood tests, because they are trained to do so
Jun 14 03:39:20 <man_in_shack>	it's like a form of delegation from the GP
Jun 14 03:39:33 <sylarr>	I think GP's should use their education for research and advance medicine, instead of acting as drug dispensers
Jun 14 03:40:02 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, GPs generally don't have the right education for research projects
Jun 14 03:40:07 <man_in_shack>	because they don't specialise
Jun 14 03:40:26 <man_in_shack>	medicine is not one big thing that everyone knows equally about
Jun 14 03:40:46 <man_in_shack>	for research to work, the researches have to specialise in the field they are researching, e.g. neurosurgery
Jun 14 03:40:50 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, what does GP's do that take requires their training? do they calculate complicated chemical interaction that htey have learned in organic chemestry before the patient?
Jun 14 03:41:10 <slashus2>	I would rather have someone very well trained in biology, epidemiology, human anatomy, and practical applications, than someone less trained in such fields.
Jun 14 03:41:15 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, to a certain degree, yes, but that task is assigned to the pharmacist
Jun 14 03:42:19 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, GPs usually know what combinations of drugs conflict, however that is the speciality of pharmacists
Jun 14 03:42:20 <sylarr>	GP's learn everything a specialist learns, they have just one year of education difference
Jun 14 03:42:26 <tryto>	lol
Jun 14 03:42:32 <tryto>	did you just say that>?
Jun 14 03:42:39 <tryto>	so you think a GP can perform brain surgery?
Jun 14 03:42:51 *	Sephr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Jun 14 03:43:04 <tryto>	or do a heart transplant?
Jun 14 03:43:09 <tryto>	after all, they "know everything a specialist learns"
Jun 14 03:43:11 <man_in_shack>	or anaesthesia
Jun 14 03:43:25 <sylarr>	and specialist are not doing research either, they just get patients all the time and give them drugs
Jun 14 03:43:28 <sylarr>	just the same
Jun 14 03:43:39 <tryto>	or they could deliver babies!
Jun 14 03:43:46 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, so are you now saying that all drugs are the same?
Jun 14 03:44:01 *	tryto grabs popcorn.
Jun 14 03:44:10 *	man_in_shack grabs microwave
Jun 14 03:44:16 <sylarr>	tryto, a GP can handle everything an ER dr can
Jun 14 03:44:19 *	man_in_shack throws microwave at sylarr 
Jun 14 03:44:36 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, GPs are generally NOT surgeons
Jun 14 03:44:38 <tryto>	also, speciality training is like...3-6 years.
Jun 14 03:44:43 <tryto>	on top of what a GP gets
Jun 14 03:44:45 <tryto>	not 1.
Jun 14 03:45:16 <sylarr>	tryto, and with one year more invesment in specialized education a GP can do brain surgery , if he fiish the training well which not all dr's do, not all of them have the stomach for surgery
Jun 14 03:45:28 <man_in_shack>	holy fuck
Jun 14 03:45:30 <tryto>	ooh
Jun 14 03:45:33 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, do you really believe that?
Jun 14 03:45:37 <tryto>	so 3-6 and 1 are now the same numbers?
Jun 14 03:45:38 <tryto>	cool.
Jun 14 03:45:43 <tryto>	1+1=12.
Jun 14 03:45:50 <tryto>	:)
Jun 14 03:45:54 <bierdopjeeee>	sylarr, I think you do not grasp the time required to learn all the things a specialist, in any practise, needs to learn. There are many in-between-jobs to fill that time for practical reasons.
Jun 14 03:46:19 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, do you seriously believe it takes ONE year to learn brain surgery if you have done ABSOLUTELY NO surgical practices before?
Jun 14 03:46:28 <sylarr>	DR's have 6 years studies 1 year specializing and an other few years of internship
Jun 14 03:46:43 <sylarr>	isn't all this argument a bit drifting?
Jun 14 03:47:02 <man_in_shack>	"drifting"?
Jun 14 03:47:09 <sylarr>	yes, 
Jun 14 03:47:16 <man_in_shack>	i'm sorry, do you have a point that we can drift away from?
Jun 14 03:47:28 <sylarr>	we are not discussing here GP's and medicin
Jun 14 03:47:28 <man_in_shack>	cos it sounds like you have absolutely no fucking idea how medicine education works
Jun 14 03:47:42 <man_in_shack>	really? the last 20 minutes or so disagrees with you
Jun 14 03:47:46 <tryto>	sure, he has a fucking idea. It's just that that idea is wrong.
Jun 14 03:47:48 <sylarr>	we are discussing belief in the face of evidence to the contrary
Jun 14 03:47:56 <tryto>	like yours, for example.
Jun 14 03:48:11 <tryto>	you believe that in one year, a GP can learn neurosurgery.
Jun 14 03:48:16 <tryto>	there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
Jun 14 03:48:21 <tryto>	case in point.
Jun 14 03:48:24 <slashus2>	tryto: I see.
Jun 14 03:48:51 <man_in_shack>	i'm going to call this a violation of rules 1a and 1b
Jun 14 03:48:53 <sylarr>	tryto, That is my general knowledge and it may be false
Jun 14 03:49:06 <man_in_shack>	ok, no longer 1b
Jun 14 03:49:44 <man_in_shack>	sylarr, just be warned, i consider you in violation of the rules. when i get sick of your wilful ignorance, i will forcefully terminate the argument
Jun 14 03:49:51 <sylarr>	tryto,  are you a neurosurgent that you know so much better?
Jun 14 03:50:08 <tryto>	if I say yes, will you shut up?
Jun 14 03:50:21 <tryto>	I'm not, but obviously, from your complete lack of knowledge, neither are you.
Jun 14 03:50:27 <man_in_shack>	medicine is a SCIENCE. by definition, it is right until proven wrong
Jun 14 03:51:01 <sylarr>	man_in_shack, tryto you obviously don't know how to argue gracefully. So I will do us all a favor and just leave
Jun 14 03:51:09 <man_in_shack>	"belief" in science brings us the computers and the internet that we're using to perpetuate this needless discussion
Jun 14 03:51:10 <tryto>	but this is the month of capricorn and mars is in the sky
Jun 14 03:51:10 *	ChanServ gives channel operator status to man_in_shack
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jun 14 03:51:16 2009