[18:39] <Sho_> imbrandon: May I see the konversationrc you supply by default?
[18:40] <imbrandon> Sho_: if you can wait till i get to the house
[18:40] <Sho_> hydrogen: probably
[18:40] * Dhraakellian scurries off
[18:40] <Sho_> imbrandon: Which takes how long? :)
[18:40] <imbrandon> i wont be home for a few hours
[18:40] <imbrandon> ~3 or so
[18:40] <Sho_> imbrandon: You don't have this online somewhere on your mirrors?
[18:41] <Sho_> omeow: ping
[18:41] <omeow> Hello.
[18:41] <Sho_> omeow: Could you do a "locate konversationrc" on your Edgy box and upload the one in kubuntu-default-settings please?
[18:41] <Sho_> Mr. Kubuntu Council can't ;)
[18:42] <argnl> imbrandon: do applications have the option to opt out of your modifications?
[18:42] <Sho_> imbrandon: Wtf, you switch on the tray icon by default?
[18:42] <imbrandon> argnl: no , but you can come to a kubuntu meeting and ask for sane defaults if you dont like them
[18:42] <imbrandon> Sho_: no
[18:43] <imbrandon> thats MY icon , not defualt kubuntu
[18:43] <omeow> I like the tray icon. :0
[18:43] <Sho_> imbrandon: well the one you distributed to omeow does
[18:43] <omeow> /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings/kde-profile/default/share/config/konversationrc
[18:43] <imbrandon> Sho_: i compiled whatever is in the tarbal you provided
[18:44] <imbrandon> no changes or patches
[18:44] <Sho_> imbrandon: I'm talking about Kubuntu Edgy, not your nightlies
[18:44] <Sho_> http://www.eikehein.com/kubuntu-konversationrc
[18:44] <imbrandon> ohh kubuntu uses some strange icons that are not set in stone yet, dont pay those attn
[18:44] <imbrandon> those are to throw the "screen shot " group outa whak
[18:44] <imbrandon> ( for edgy )
[18:45] <Sho_> imbrandon: I'm not talking about /the/ icon, I'm talking about Kubuntu apparently enabling the system tray icon by default
[18:45] <imbrandon> ahh yea it probably does
[18:45] <imbrandon> why ?
[18:45] <Sho_> imbrandon: And also changing the nicklist theme apparently
[18:46] <imbrandon> yes and it will enable the tabs on the left after tomarrow
[18:46] <imbrandon> we do this for MANY apps, look at amarok
[18:46] <imbrandon> etc
[18:46] <argnl> Sho_: because they know better than we do. we the application authors know nothing, after all.
[18:46] <Sho_> argnl: Okay, what's the best way here to publically announce we recommend against using Konvi on Kubuntu?
[18:46] <Sho_> argnl: PlanetKDE?
[18:46] <hydrogen> look at the amount of people using kubuntu compared to a distro that goes stock... like slackware
[18:46] <imbrandon> argnl: no we just want our own sane defaults, as with many many many distros alrady do, kubuntu is not the first
[18:46] <hydrogen> >_<
[18:48] <Sho_> imbrandon: So where's the meeting protocol where it was decided that you'd fuck with the tab defaults? Or are "sane defaults" determined by "the package maintainer likes it that way"?
[18:48] <imbrandon> Sho_:  you have to be kidding , you dont want distros to have their own defaults , so we're supose to just install whatever the app says even if it go's against what we recomend
[18:48] <imbrandon> Sho_: yes next thursday 2000utc is the next one
[18:48] <imbrandon> see fridge.ubuntu.com for the schedule
[18:49] <imbrandon> this has been done for 2 almost 3 years now, you just NOW notice ?
[18:49] <Sho_> imbrandon: So when the next meeting is next Thursday, how come you already know that it's going to be changed?
[18:49] <argnl> well, see, thats the problem. until someone comes bitching, we don't know.
[18:49] <imbrandon> Sho_: becouse they have been discussed already, the ones i mentioned, that is the NEXT meeting, they are every two weeks
[18:50] <argnl> distros do whatever the fuck they want, and the application developers are supposed to run every distro to make sure their program hasn't been fucked with
[18:50] <imbrandon> argnl: and who is/was bitching ?
[18:50] <Sho_> imbrandon: Where's the protocol of that meeting? I want to read the arguments of your usability people
[18:50] <imbrandon> as i said its all listed on the fridge as well as the agenda links
[18:50] <argnl> imbrandon: no one, but its not unprecedented that users come along complaining of bugs introduced by the distros, not the developers.
[18:51] <imbrandon> hahah ok w/e
[18:52] <Sho_> imbrandon: The last minutes are from August 10th and don't include "Konversation"
[18:52] <-- hagabaka has left this server ("Konversation terminated!").
[18:52] <imbrandon> that wasent brought up at the last meeting
[18:52] <imbrandon> i dident say it was
[18:53] <Sho_> imbrandon: So who decided to put the tabs on the left, and was process did he/they use to arrive at that conclusion?
[18:53] <Sho_> *what process
[18:54] <imbrandon> i decided to bring it upto riddell whom has the final say and it was a general concensus among the developers that we do so, that is how each and ever defaul is set in kubuntu ( along with any other distrubution ) you can sift throw the public -devel logs if you like
[18:54] <imbrandon> i dont rember the exact day/time 
[18:54] <argnl> Sho_: their "usability" people, if they have them, have probably never considered the situation where a user comes from one distro to another, and are suddenly expected to be able to act like experts to get their previous configuration back
[18:55] <imbrandon> argnl: becosue thats not our target, "our" useabilty people like it consitant with other apps and our choices not what we're forced into
[18:55] <Sho_> argnl: I'm pretty sure that the decision was made based on someone saying "I like this better"
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[18:55] <imbrandon> anyhow this is not the place to disscuss this as i dont make the decessions myself
[18:56] <imbrandon> i gave you the outlet to bring it up
[18:56] <imbrandon> use it if you wish
[18:56] <Sho_> argnl: Which kind of sucks because I expect that the person who said "I like this better" spend massively less time thinking about and working on the application than we have
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