kfish: have you seen clutter? jdub, no, whatsit? kfish: http://o-hand.com/blog/?p=10 jdub, looks interesting :) it's way cool scenegraphy canvas with gl, gst, cairo... yum! man, i can't believe they're writing it in C no wonder it's taking a year and still has bugs ;-) they don't work on it much one intended use case is embedded devices building the basic api in C makes sense not at all :) in the context in which it was built, it does random theoretical arguments aren't very interesting we write libraries in C because they can be exposed to other languages more easily than anything else so does apple if you want a big-kids example dude, you're preaching to someone who used to preach that argument i know where C belongs, and it's in most of the stack jdub: As much as C makes sense for low-level APIs (e.g. Speex), it sucks for higher-level stuff -- including GUI stuff like Gnome. jmworx: gobject + wrapping - that's the whole point jdub: in practice, wrappers are always lagging, poorly documented, so eventhough you could use them theoretically, few people do. Just look at the C++ bindings for Gnome as an example. they rock really hard and are on the same release cycle and have been massively adopted outside the floss community cocoa is a wrapper for carbon, but you don't hear apple or their developers talk about it in that way :) jdub: Have you ever used the gnome C++ bindings. I tried and gave up because of lack of doc (really hard despite that I knew the C version) and lack of support. i imagine that was the case a while back it's not true now, however The worst was gnomecanvasmm. There was nobody (including the gtkmm maintainer) who could tell me why automatic item destruction didn't work and whether it was a bug or a feature. gnomecanvas is a dark hole whatever you're coding in, unfortunately jdub: What I'm talking about is ~2 months ago. I co-authored a gnome1 application a while ago (in C only because the C++ bindings weren't ready). It eventually got converted to gnome2, becoming more and more ugly, so we decided to re-write the GUI layer (a small fraction of the app) to something in C++ (like the rest of the app). Choice was between gnome/libglade and Qt. I had to fight really hard to do basic things in Gnome/libglade (though the API *is* nice, doc is bad/nonexistant). When it came to the canvas (which is the central part of our app), I had to give up. So we're going to rewrite with Qt4 (which the other co-author got to work rather easily).