10:29 < hundred-ideas> hmm, I was going to run it through wordle
10:29 < hundred-ideas> for, you know, fun
10:30 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: disregard my last message, i just updated it
10:32 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: if you want a frequency analysis, see http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/histo3
10:32 < hundred-ideas> thanks
10:32 < hundred-ideas> there have got to be a ton of libraries out there for helping make tag clouds
10:34 < hundred-ideas> I need the top 1000 most interesting (ok ok frequent) terms, minus common stop words
10:34 < kanzure> what is a "stop" word
10:34 < hundred-ideas> weird term, right?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_words
10:35 < kanzure> cat hplusroadmap.log | sed 's/^.*>//g' | sed 's/\W/ /g' | sed 's/ /\n/g' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
10:36 < kanzure> ah, i can do that http://www.textfixer.com/resources/common-english-words.txt
10:36 < kanzure> ok let me cook something up real quick
10:38 < hundred-ideas> p.s. you should meet up with Jeff Potter, if you have time
10:38 < hundred-ideas> he's cool.
10:39 < kanzure> is he the cooking-with-funjet person?
10:41 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@2001:0:53aa:64c:2c80:12d9:52c6:ef50] has joined #hplusroadmap
10:41 < hundred-ideas> not sure about funjet.  cookingforgeeks.com
10:41 < hundred-ideas> food hacking.
10:42 < hundred-ideas> it's interesting to me because from a practical perspective, the setting and equipment used by molecular gastronomists / food hackers is often congruent with diybio activities, but the public perception is opposite
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10:47  * kanzure waits for his tag cloud generator to finish
10:48 < hundred-ideas> hey, can I grab the formatted tag list from you
10:48 < kanzure> what format would you like
10:49 < JayDugger> Tag cloud f what?
10:49 < JayDugger> s/f/of
10:50 < kanzure> word frequency analysis of #hplusroadmap
10:50 < hundred-ideas> newline delimited 
10:50 < JayDugger> Neat. Have you a set of links dropped in #hplusroadmap?
10:51 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: yeah but do you want something like: word,count\nword,count or count,word\ncount,word or count<deliberate space here>word or wut?
10:51 < kanzure> JayDugger: yes
10:51 < kanzure> JayDugger: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap-urls.2010-01-25.txt
10:51 < JayDugger> Thank you.
10:51 < kanzure> that was in late january. here's one from october: http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap-urls.txt
10:52 < kanzure> obviously the january one is more complete
10:57 < kanzure> i'm going to limit this first cloud to words that have been mentioned 4 or more times
10:57 < kanzure> the frequency list is 1.1MB in size and has about a million lines, so doing anything else will take more time than i have patience to give
10:58 < JayDugger> Do you know the TextArc visualization?
10:59 < kanzure> http://textarc.org/
10:59 < JayDugger> http://www.textarc.org/
10:59 < kanzure> no haven't seen it
11:00 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/~bbishop/docs/hplusroadmap_tag_cloud.html (1.7 MB)
11:01 < kanzure> doesn't look good (don't bother)
11:11  * kanzure incorporates a word frequency list (bnc)
11:15 < Utopiah> (Creative Combinatorics http://notes.hapke.de/ by Thomas Hapke)
11:18 < kanzure> Utopiah: here's another kind of combinatorics you might be interested in: http://ideonomy.mit.edu/gunkel.html
11:19 < Utopiah> yep, know that page already
11:19 < Utopiah> was very disappointed by his "Dreams" website
11:23 < Utopiah> but thanks for reminding me of his work
11:33 < kanzure> here we go
11:33 < kanzure> http://designfiles.org/~bryan/hplusroadmap_tag_cloud.2010-03-13.4-to-300-only.html
11:36 < JayDugger> What does the step parameter mean?
11:36 < kanzure> font size is an integer
11:37 < kanzure> step size is multiplied by the frequency or count of the tag to determine which font size it should have
11:37 < kanzure> or something like that
11:37 < JayDugger> What software did you use to make this?
11:38 < JayDugger> Heh. My name has only slighter greater size than "useless".
11:38 < JayDugger> :)
11:38 < kanzure> i wrote a quick script
11:39 < kanzure> JayDugger: it's the same one that made http://designfiles.org/~bryan/meetlog/tags.html
11:40 < JayDugger> Neat.
11:53 < hundred-ideas> back later, gotta do some work
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13:31 < kanzure> http://incubator.apache.org/cassandra/
13:35 < fenn> hmm you should grep -v lines with -!- (server messages)
13:35 < fenn> lots of hostname/ip crap in there
13:37 < kanzure> "That raises a good point: If I launch a missile at my enemy or an unfortunate neighbor, and the missile's internal computer uses GPL software, then do I have to include a copy of the GPL source code (or make an offer to provide the code by mail) somewhere in the payload?"
13:37 < fenn> only if the missile doesn't detonate :P
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13:51 < kanzure> fenn: this has been making its way around the internet: http://www.behance.net/Gallery/Personal-Infographic/238344
13:52 < kanzure> guy behind it: http://www.jarrodbarretto.com/contact/
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13:53 < kanzure> ah here we go: http://www.jarrodbarretto.com/project/personal-infographic/
13:53 < kanzure> bah it's just a week?
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15:02 < fenn> mine's better
15:02 < fenn> his doesn't even make sense.. it all just runs together; color coded by day of the week? are you serious?
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15:12 < kanzure> yeah but he's an "art student" so people spread it around more (for some reason)
15:30 < kanzure> http://blog.freebase.com/2010/03/12/help-us-map-wordnet-to-freebase/
15:33 < kanzure> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/03/microfluidics-that-is-million-times.html microfluidic sorting device but for some reason with some hype around it
15:33 < kanzure> with the paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2010/02/08/0910781107.DCSupplemental/pnas.0910781107_SI.pdf
15:33 < kanzure> "Ultrahigh-throughput screening in drop-based microfluidics for directed evolution" yay
15:34 < kanzure> hm edited by harry l. swinney at utexas.edu
15:35 < kanzure> pdf: http://designfiles.org/papers/microfluidics/Ultrahigh-throughput%20screening%20in%20drop-based%20microfluidics%20for%20directed%20evolution.pdf
15:35 < kanzure> grr that's just the supplementary
15:38 < kanzure> fixed
15:40 < kanzure> "1-million-fold reduction in cost" ha, ha
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16:04 < fenn> gps proximity linked-in: http://pairwise.mobi/  "now at SXSW!"
16:04 < fenn> apparently they wrote it in three days on a bus from sf to austin
16:05 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
16:05 < fenn> by euwyn poon and friends
16:48 < fenn> paid for hackerdojo membership
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17:12 < kanzure> fenn: please bug me until i cover that cost please
17:14 < kanzure> hm only one please, please
17:15 < kanzure> "I am Art Ransom and I live in Lancaster, I35 and Beltline, south of Dallas"
17:16 < kanzure> so who wants to bet that the name is fake?
17:18 -!- genehackerwindow [genehacker@wireless-128-62-47-90.public.utexas.edu] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:19 < genehackerwindow> kanzure you there?
17:20 < kanzure> yes
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17:26 < genehackerwindow> when are you leaving for dorkbot?
17:27 < kanzure> tomorrow
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17:30 < genehackerwindow> ok have fun with time travel
17:30 < kanzure> what?
17:30 < genehackerwindow> it's today
17:30 < kanzure> lkfaflk
17:31 < kanzure> fooey
17:32  * genehackerwindow runs while tying to the bbbuss
17:32 < Utopiah> http://eng.ifez.go.kr/menu02/robotland.asp
17:34 < kanzure> should i go?
17:37 -!- genehackerwindow [genehacker@wireless-128-62-47-90.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:39 < kanzure> decisions decisions
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20:10 < fenn> no tweezers at the dojo.. amazing
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21:14 < kanzure> i feel like an idiot
21:14 < kanzure> why did i go
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21:36 < kanzure> hm that's interesting, bre is my target demographic for 1kfriend.ly http://www.facebook.com/brepettis
21:37 < kanzure> i guess he's 1.5k friendly
21:37 < genehacker> I'm back, I had to cross the sixth street anebriapause, but I made it
21:37 < genehacker> *inebriapause
21:59 < kingjacob> hello everyone
22:07 < kanzure> hi kingjacob 
22:09 < kanzure> International Open Space Initiative
22:10 < kanzure> oh apparently i knew about that in 2009-08 http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2009-August/052464.html
22:10 < kanzure> fenn: ping
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22:22 < kingjacob> @kanzure: were you able to get shell access to the server?
22:26 < kanzure> i've been trying to log in to opensciencefund.com for the last few minutes and for some reason am not getting a response from the server
22:26 < kanzure> i'll keep trying :)
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22:32 < kingjacob> I'm waiting to talk with the support people right now
22:38 < kanzure> it's not the end of the world if part of it is broken since we're already loaded up with free hosting everywhere :)
22:44 < kingjacob> did you talk to the support people already?
22:45 < kanzure> no?
22:47 < kingjacob> okay, found out the problem
22:47 < kanzure> hm?
22:47 < kingjacob> they dont enable ssh by default for "security" reasons
22:47 < kingjacob> it should work now
22:47 < kanzure> a reasonable precaution
22:48 < kanzure> running ssh scientist@opensciencefund.com still lags / doesn't do anything
22:48 < kanzure> isn't hostgator a shared hosting provider? so ssh isn't going to give me root
22:50 < kingjacob> its scientis, no t
22:50 < kanzure> right
22:51 < kingjacob> If its too big of a hassle dont worry about it
22:51 < kanzure> yeah we'll sort this out later
22:51 < kanzure> i was kinda hoping fenn would be around
22:52 < kingjacob> who's fenn?
22:52 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/
22:52 < kanzure> he's an off-and-on skdb developer :P
22:53 < kingjacob> ahh, very cool.
22:54 < kingjacob> Speaking of very cool things,
22:54 < kingjacob> On monday, I may be in Austin
22:55 < kanzure> want to meet?
22:55 < kanzure> i may or may not be hanging out with the ycombinator and capitalfactory people on monday, but other than that i'm doing nothing in particular
22:55 < kingjacob> yeah, 
22:56 < kingjacob> ycombinator? nice.
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22:57 < kanzure> "By the time you've reached your forties, chances are you're out-of-touch with more friends than you're in-touch with, old summer-camp chums, high-school mates, ex-spouses and their families, former co-workers, college roomies, dot-com veterans... Getting all those people back into your life is a full-time job and then some."
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23:19 < fenn> kanzure: pong
23:20 < fenn> did you meet bre yet? he's probably in austin right now
23:20 < kanzure> yes i met with bre
23:21 < fenn> does he act like his youtube persona?
23:21 < kanzure> yes
23:21 < fenn> AWESOME
23:21 < fenn> ~~~
23:21 < kanzure> OH GAWD!!! EVERYONE GETS STICKERS!!!
23:22 < kanzure> he's slightly toned down in person and listens more than he does on the web, but not by much
23:23 < fenn> so, hackerdojo is really nice to just hang around for a while, then go next door and chat with some cool people @ android hackathon, then eat some lo mein and cookies and back to hacking
23:23 < fenn> the electronics bench looks like it doesn't get used enough
23:23 < kanzure> what do people do then? most hackerspaces that i've looked into tend to do mostly electronics stuff
23:24 < fenn> the cnc mill works, but it uses mach 3 which is super goofy
23:24 < kanzure> mach3 is cam?
23:24 < fenn> they mostly sit around with laptops :\
23:24 < fenn> granted, that's what i did today too
23:24 < kanzure> oh so it's a co-play/co-working space
23:24 < fenn> yeah it's more like a big clubhouse
23:24 < fenn> for nerds
23:24 < kanzure> do they have a russian bouncer named nikoli?
23:25 < fenn> not that kind of clubhouse
23:25 < kanzure> s/nikoli/stanislev
23:25 < kanzure> or something more manly
23:26 < fenn> the kind with a loft and electric scooters
23:26 < kanzure> bre showed up on a fucking segway
23:26 < fenn> AWESOME
23:26 < kanzure> everyone smelled like beer and buttsecks
23:26 < kanzure> it was terrible :(
23:26 < fenn> hm i wonder why
23:27 < fenn> did you go to any of the music thingies
23:27 < kanzure> arc attack
23:27 < kanzure> http://arcattack.com/
23:28 < katsmeow-afk> what does buttsecks smell like?
23:29 < kanzure> ass and more ass
23:29 < katsmeow-afk> oh
23:29 < kanzure> for some reason i was solicited to write someone an iphone app :/
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23:31 < fenn> never in a million years would my high school do something like arc attack
23:32 < fenn> the science teacher must be getting pretty hot in that cage
--- Day changed Sun Mar 14 2010
00:21  * kanzure wonders what "ambient metal" is
00:23 < fenn> "Vernor Vinge is working on a sequel to A Fire Upon the Deep"  i guess i'll have to read that first
00:25 < kanzure> what happened to a deepness in the sky?
00:26 < kanzure> weird, i found the one transhumanist (real) chick on okcupid
00:27 < fenn> o rly
00:28 < kanzure> er, wait, katia is also on there so nevermind
00:43 < fenn> "By using a single lens and a sophisticated array of photon detectors, signal processors and computers he is able to freeze a 6 nanosecond pulse of laser light (roughly 6 feet long) and do this feat 30 times a second. Steve takes individual photos or a complete sequence over a very short period of time to create a movie. The movie can be processed to create a 3 dimensional model of the scene - each picture is illuminated at a subsequently differen
00:44 < fenn> "He shows a series of images taken through a window with venetian blinds drawn. The light illuminates the window and the blinds first, then a person sitting in a chair behind the window and finally, the back wall."
00:44 < kanzure> sounds like BEC stuff
00:44 < kanzure> or ultracold stuff
00:46 < kanzure> hm, nevermind
00:46 < kanzure> there was some literal "freeze a nanosecond pulse of light" stuff a while back via ultracold physics
00:46 < fenn> video about it http://www.gadgetoff.com/2007/video-silverman.html
00:49 < fenn> "advanced scientific concepts"
00:56 < avicenna> how does he create the 3d images??
00:57 < avicenna> from single point of capture
01:00 < fenn> the laser pulse scans through the depth of field at the speed of light. the camera is fast enough to watch as it progresses
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01:19 < fenn> lol, robotic boomerang: http://www.veratech.aero/phantom.html
01:23 < fenn> fascism is alive and well, in, well, wherever this is: http://www.flickr.com/photos/novas0x2a/3882576557/
01:27 < kanzure> i read it as "facism" 
01:27 < kanzure> facism is a SERIOUS problem
01:40 < fenn> i'm a facist
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04:06 < ybit> did we ever get a link for the optogenetically controlled mice?
04:06 < ybit> s/link/paper
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05:17 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
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09:29 < ybit> drr
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13:10 < Utopiah> huge... http://crisismaven.wordpress.com/references/references-subjects-covered/data-structuring/data-visualisation-references/
13:16 < kanzure> guess i'll submit gapminder to him
13:35 < Utopiah> jrayhawk: since you seem to be into geolocalisation http://developer.yahoo.com/geo/placemaker/
13:51 < kanzure> alec emailed me today asking for stl2iges .. hate to break the news for him though
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15:01 < kanzure> hey kingjacob 
15:01 < kanzure> oh, just a ping timeout
15:21 < Utopiah> http://datacluster.infochimps.org/
15:22 < Utopiah> http://semanticwebaustin.org/sxsw/
15:25 < kanzure> i saw infochimps.org's capitalfactory pitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIuqJ1QZpvI
15:42 < kanzure> why don't i have a /var/git
15:55 < fenn> because it's one more random directory to remember to backup?
15:55 < kanzure> but at some point i had a /var/git for some reason
15:59 < kingjacob> yes
16:00 < kingjacob> kanzure ?
16:00 < kanzure> you had a ping timeout and i thought you had logged in
16:01 < kingjacob> oh haha.
16:03 < kingjacob> We're getting into austin late morning tomorrow, when are you free?
16:04 < kanzure> all day, but maybe busy from 5pm to 7pm
16:07 < kingjacob> In that case, I'll just call when we're an hour out, cool?
16:07 < kanzure> sounds good
16:07 < kanzure> also: super mario on an 8x8 LED matrix http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2361357,00.asp
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16:08 < kanzure> hm they typoed it with "Ardiuno"
16:09 < fenn> damn i should be here right now: http://www.exploratorium.edu/pi/
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16:40 < fenn> hmm so, yeah. i dont know what i'd use a crappy 3d camera for, but apparently i have one already: http://vimeo.com/8392566
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17:18 < kanzure> hi ferrouswheel 
17:18 < kanzure> iirc, you do opencog magic?
17:25 < ferrouswheel> kanzure, indeed I do
17:26 < ferrouswheel> I vaguely recall I've hung out here in the past, but thought I should join the channel as a H+ board member ;-) ... even though I know this channel isn't necessarily associated with the H+ org.
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17:30 < genehacker> fenn is that 3d camera just one camera?
17:31 < genehacker> or is there some sort of projector projecting on what is being scanned
17:31 < genehacker> now does that PS3 eye have good optics?
17:31 < genehacker> because it certainly fulfills the low resolution requirements for our robot
17:33 < genehacker> NEED ROBOT VISION THAT WORKS
17:47 < kanzure> genehacker: you going to this? http://www.texaslinuxfest.org/talks/
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18:31 < genehacker> no
18:31 < kanzure> what if i pick you up
18:36 < genehacker> would love to
18:36 < genehacker> I'm in Dallas
18:36 < genehacker> that's going to make things hard
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19:12 < fenn> genehacker: it's one camera, 640x480, something about a projector doing "structured light" which i can imagine might increase the 3D resolution
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19:29 < kanzure> wow, this is impressive in the spam-is-terrible way: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/03/14/1551230/Classmatescom-Settles-Lawsuit-Over-Phony-Friends?art_pos=7
19:35 < fenn> wow a $3 cash payout!
19:36 < genehacker> dammit
19:36 < genehacker> that'll never work for a robot
19:37 < genehacker> which means we'll stick with laser scanners
19:37 < fenn> 640x480 is plenty
19:37 < kanzure> nice someone on slashdot discribes gpl as "freedom forward"
19:37 < fenn> more than that and you will be wasting cpu cycles dealing with all the pixels
19:37 < kanzure> s/freedom forward/forward freedom/
19:38 < kanzure> i'm sure there's some way to improve on that stylization of the idea
19:38 < genehacker> I know
19:38 < genehacker> we need low res cameras with high optics
19:38 < genehacker> we'll probably go with an i-sight
19:38 < genehacker> an isight with the apple scrapped off...
19:39 < fenn> i was not impressed with the i-sight
19:40 < fenn> you really ought to try out a ps3 eye before making any decision
19:40 < kanzure> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html how to report bugs effectively (simon tatham)
19:40 < fenn> it rocks.. it's like an old CCD camera
19:40 < kanzure> ew wtf is the "opencontent license"? http://www.opencontent.org/opl.shtml
19:41 < kanzure> http://www.opencontent.org/definition/
19:41 < kanzure> cooperables?
19:42 < kanzure> is cooperable a word?
19:42 < kanzure> `dict` says no
19:43 < fenn> no
19:44 < genehacker> well I'll have to talk to our vision team
19:44 < fenn> apparently it's a trademark though
19:44 < kanzure> genehacker: are you talking about the RAS vision team?
19:44 < genehacker> yes
19:44 < genehacker> we're doing IGVC
19:44 < kanzure> right
19:44 < kanzure> are you on the igcvc mailing list too?
19:45 < kanzure> *igvc
19:45 < genehacker> yes
19:45 < kanzure> i wish i could do real-time network diagnostics.. i.e. "why does my connection suck?"
19:45 < genehacker> drop yourself from the list on sunday, it makes our leaders angry
19:45 < kanzure> kanzure@pikachu:~$ whylag
19:45 < kanzure> 200.222.222.222 is downloading /blah.avi
19:45 < genehacker> you named your box pikachu?
19:46 < kanzure> pikachu is my laptop
19:46 < kanzure> leibniz is heybryan.org
19:46 < kanzure> davinci is designfiles.org
19:46 < genehacker> oh
19:46 < fenn> kanzure: netstat --inet ?
19:47 < fenn> you'd need a real linux router to do more complicated stuff, otherwise you couldn't know about what's happening on other computers on your NAT LAN
19:47 < genehacker> dammit why can't we all just have fiber that plugs in straight to the router?
19:47 < kanzure> when i run that on leibniz i get only a weird udp thing (localhost-only) and the ssh session i just popped open
19:48 < kanzure> although there is a weird thing on davinci on port 40047 to ides.fscked.org:9090
19:49 < kanzure> mike perry?
19:49 < kanzure> are we running a tor node?
19:49 < kanzure> "Mike Perry Mad Computer Scientist fscked.org evil labs"
19:50 < kanzure> apparently he posts to kde.org
19:50 < genehacker> that's odd
19:50 < kanzure> "As if publicising the security flaws isn’t enough, Perry will be releasing an automated hacking tool that exploits them."
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19:51 < kanzure> that connection is no longer there
19:52 < genehacker> he feeds the skiddies...
19:53 < kanzure> http://torstatus.kgprog.com/router_detail.php?FP=f397038adc51336135e7b80bd99ca3844360292b
19:54 < fenn> mike perry sounds familiar.. didn't i just run across that name?
19:55 < fenn> oh heh it was on fscked.org, nevermind
19:56 < fenn> apparently i can remember a name's context for less than 5 minutes
19:57 < kanzure> congratulations, you're only marginally smarter than a fish!
19:57 < genehacker> you're running a tor node?
19:57 < genehacker> have you been attacked by a world government yet
19:59 < kanzure> i am not running a tor exit node
20:00 < genehacker> oh
20:02 < kanzure> jrayhawk: should i know the name "mike perry"?
20:04 < jrayhawk> Not a name I recognize.
20:10 < kanzure> http://nudeal.com/selling-lead/hot-sell-spy-gsm-voice-transmitter-hidden-power-strip-0
20:12 < kanzure> http://hacknmod.com/hack/hide-a-hard-drive-in-a-power-strip/
20:15 < fenn> there's a bit of a difference between a UPS and a power strip
20:22 < genehacker> now I wonder if that cryptomnicon door with a powerful electromagnet trick works 
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20:37 < genehacker> dsl.hstntx.swbell.net, do we have someone from houston here?
20:37 < genehacker> or more specifically do we have someone who's been to TX-RX
20:38 < kingjacob> yep
20:39 < genehacker> oh cool
20:39 < genehacker> I need to visit TX-RX sometime
20:40 < genehacker> maybe this friday
20:41 < kingjacob> we have open house every friday, 
20:42 < kingjacob> so there should be a few people there after 7
20:42 < genehacker> yeah I know
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22:11 < JayDugger> Good night, everyone. Time to commute.
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22:12 < fenn> oo oo can i buy this: http://search.ebay.com/390164396392
22:18 < kanzure> i might be talking with this guy on monday: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2369.txt?number=2369
22:18 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/ben_tank_helmet_large.jpg
22:19 < fenn> needs more borg encrustation
22:20 < fenn> i bet bart is about as loud as a fuckin tank
22:20 < fenn> riding bart and trying to decipher japanese with my crap headphones is an exercise in futility
22:23 < fenn> who are grant neufeld and/or josh baer?
22:29 < fenn> ok i'm getting that helmet
22:31 < fenn> then i'm going to put a tux penguin pin on it
22:37 < kanzure> will you be listening to "gnu free radio" all day?
22:44 < fenn> radio free mars
22:44 < fenn> or was that galaxy free radio.. i forget
22:44 < fenn> yes, i will be monitoring all frequencies for abnormal activity
22:47 < fenn> i'm putting together an order for circuit specialists right now
22:47 < fenn> what should i do with it when i'm done? a lot of it is basic electronics development crap
22:48 < fenn> stuff hacker dojo should have but doesn't for some reason
22:57 < fenn> well i guess i oughta catch the train instead of riding an hour home
22:57 < fenn> diurnal bastards
22:59 < fenn> 
23:07 < kingjacob> what's worth checking out in Austin tomorrow?
23:10 < kanzure> if you've never been to a "visualization lab" before you should stop by ACES 2.404a on the utexas.edu campus
23:11 < kanzure> it's a 307 megapixel display
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23:58 < kanzure> "Thiel, by then a board member of Facebook, indicated that Facebook's internal valuation was around $8 billion based on their projected revenues of $1 billion by 2015"
--- Day changed Mon Mar 15 2010
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00:22 < fenn> wow i just saw the most AWESOME commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q4JLsNtDsM
00:25 < kanzure> ybit: could you linkdump on metacurrency / fake money projects?
00:25 < kanzure> Utopiah: you too?
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02:34 < fenn> ugh.. i hate it when you have this huge order and the shopping cart inexplicably self destructs
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03:56 < kanzure> stalk: steve klabnik
04:19 < fenn> i need to setup/compile/learn liquidpcb
04:31 < Utopiah> kanzure: I just remember http://www.openmoney.info/ (btw I think "real" money is as fake as this one, just more widely used)
04:42 < Utopiah> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the_smarter_you_are_the_less_you_click.php
04:43 < Utopiah> (no, it doesn't mean that AdBlock Plus makes you a genius ;)
04:51 < kanzure> if you hate using a mouse, does that count
04:53 < Utopiah> if you are using a mouse, it directly counts as "n00b"
05:38 < Utopiah> (regarding an earlier question I asked about available legal template, just found http://www.seriesseed.com/ )
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08:43 < ybit> kanzure: they all suck, how about that for a link dump
08:44 < ybit> openmoney.info was decentat some point, but it's all about metacurrency imho
08:44 < ybit> and they have some game setup on flowplace
08:45 < ybit> that's the only effort i care for
08:51 < ybit> metacurrency is a platform for which currencies can be created and maintained
08:51 < ybit> it's not another alt currency
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09:11 < kingjacob> irc on my phone?
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10:33 < kanzure> i think wolframalpha lost out on an opportunity to be *the* source for bloggers to go to get embedded latex and pretty graphs/charts for their crazy theories
10:34 < kanzure> http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blogspot.com/2010/03/creating-predictably-beneficial-agi.html
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10:59 < kanzure> stalk: ryan bethencourt
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13:55 < hundred-ideas> !logs
13:55 < hundred-ideas> humbug
13:56 < Utopiah> http://designfiles.org/irclogs.txt
13:59 < hundred-ideas> thanks
13:59 < Utopiah> np
14:08 < fenn> ooh ooh ooh tomorrow 6:45pm mountain view "Evaluating Eye Tracking Systems for Computer Data Entry"
14:10 < Utopiah> (The dangers of Webcrawled datasets http://www.uic.edu/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/2739 )
14:11 < katsmeow-afk> and proposes safer alternatives? those tend to cost
14:13 < katsmeow-afk> and in some cases have been human-edited, with biased humans
14:16 < Utopiah> "In conclusion, I strongly encourage computing researchers to devise and use new mechanisms for collecting, auditing, using and redistributing Internet–based materials for empirical studies in computing."
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14:20 < kanzure> fenn: where is the tablet
14:24 < fenn> to the right of the doorway, possibly under another laptop or a tub or something
14:24 < fenn> in a black case
14:34 < fenn> find it?
14:43 < kanzure> yes
14:43 < kanzure> thank you
14:43 < kanzure> forrest wants to do DMD dna synthesis
15:03 < kanzure> Maskless fabrication of light-directed oligonucleotide microarrays using a digital micromirror array http://designfiles.org/papers/Maskless%20fabrication%20of%20light-directed%20oligonucleotide%20microarrays%20using%20a%20digital%20micromirror%20array.pdf
15:03 < hundred-ideas> what's the best way to share microbial strains via international mail?
15:04 < hundred-ideas> agar stabs?
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15:26 < fenn> depending on how much money you have to waste and how heat sensitive the bugs are, might want to send an insulated container with ice packs
15:35  * katsmeow-afk makes a note to one side "not adviseable to send self-heating MRE by container ship"
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15:59 < fenn> the guy i'm sitting across from: http://www.lib.aero/~ari/aibs/
16:11 < fenn> well that's totally useless.. printer resolution test in jpg format
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16:35 < fenn> wow i hate cups and printers in general
16:36 < kanzure> superkuh: http://designfiles.org/papers/Polyphenoloxidase%20Silencing%20Affects%20Latex%20Coagulation%20in%20Taraxacum%20Species.pdf
16:36 < kanzure> superkuh: http://designfiles.org/papers/Polyphenoloxidase%20Silencing%20Affects%20Latex%20Coagulation%20in%20Taraxacum%20Species.supplementary.pdf
16:36 < superkuh> Thanks kanzure!
16:39 < kanzure> stalk: andrew fire
16:39 < kanzure> http://bmt.stanford.edu/research/miklos-lab.html
16:45 < jrayhawk> http://iep463.nat.uni-magdeburg.de/w3fr/rotieren.html "Convection in granular media"
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17:06 < fenn> how long is typically expected to fight with cups before one can actually print a file?
17:07 < QuantumG> lifetime
17:08 < fenn> cups generally makes me more homicidal than suicidal
17:09 < QuantumG> either way, it demands blood
17:09 < Noahj> Cups hasn't demanded any virgin sacrifices from my village in ages
17:09 < Noahj> What're you trying to print to?
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17:10 < fenn> there's five printers here, one of them
17:10 < fenn> the laserjet 4050N looks old school enough to perhaps behave predictably
17:11 < Noahj> That sounds like it'd work fine
17:11 < fenn> yes it does
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19:08 < fenn> who the heck puts in all this data anyway: http://tinyurl.com/googlebikewtf
19:09 < fenn> oh look i'll be going right past google
19:12 < fenn> kanzure: plz powercycle tub when convenient
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19:56 < kanzure> fenn: forrest poked your tub today
19:58 < fenn> did he break it?
19:59 < kanzure> no, try now
19:59 < kanzure> or give it a moment to finish booting
20:00 < kanzure> paul graham is a total "social" geek
20:00 < kanzure> fairly disinterested in tech even in person
20:01 -!- any12166828 [~someone@75-120-39-248.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:02 < fenn> that's not surprising i guess.. running a startup business is mostly about being a salesman
20:02 < fenn> tub is up now, thanks
20:04 < kanzure> also, money is def. not the issue on that shopping cart you sent me
20:04 < kanzure> so now it's just a matter of me (1) getting money moved around (i.e. paypal) and (2) having the assistant do the actual order
20:04 < kanzure> oh maybe she can do #1 too
20:05 -!- katsmeow-afk [~someone@75-120-39-248.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:10 < fenn> can i just get random crap for the dojo like a drill press, even though i dont need one right now?
20:10 < kanzure> why for the dojo?
20:11 < fenn> because it's silly to buy a drill press just for me?
20:11 < fenn> and i have nowhere to put it
20:11 < fenn> and i'd rather it be in the lab next to all the other tools
20:11 < kanzure> gah why don't we have HQ yet
20:11 < kanzure> can you just pick out a building for me to buy
20:11 < kanzure> kthx
20:12 < fenn> buy 140A s whisman, mountain view ca
20:12 < kanzure> california is expensive
20:12 < fenn> ok how about a castle in albania
20:13 < kanzure> fuck yeah? :)
20:13 < kanzure> actually..
20:13 < fenn> actually your mysterious investor already owns a castle in albania
20:14 < kanzure> O_o
20:15 < kanzure> "Former President Bill Clinton is one of the most accomplished networkers of all time. Even as a student, he'd write down the name, number and a few notes about everyone he met."
20:15 < kanzure> "He'd go over these notes, and years later if he met the person again, would bring up something from that initial meeting. By the time he ran for president, there were about 10,000 Friends of Bill."
20:15 < kanzure> that's all? 10k friends?
20:16 < genehacker> that's more than 1000 true fans...
20:16 < fenn> btw dunno if i shared this.. found it in the electronics cave yesterday: http://fennetic.net/irc/privateeye.jpg
20:16 < kanzure> WHAT? 9000?
20:16 < kanzure> oh shit you found a privateeye! :)
20:16 < kanzure> good find
20:16 < kanzure> michael wittig's friend "programmeratarms" wrote the linux drivers for that
20:16 < kanzure> for the Private Eye P4
20:16 < fenn> it uses a mini-ISA CGA graphics card :\
20:17 < genehacker> that is the mythical Private Eye?
20:18 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/privateeye2.jpg
20:18 < genehacker> GEEK CRED +1000 POINTS
20:18 < kanzure> huh with a manual
20:19 < genehacker> doesn't it display in red and you see stuff all green-looking afterward?
20:19 < genehacker> and it's only good for text
20:19 < fenn> omg this place has a logic analyzer but no dremel tool?
20:19 < genehacker> where is this place
20:19 < fenn> 140a s whisman rd, mountain view ca
20:20 < fenn> about 2 blocks south of the googleplex
20:20 < fenn> er, something like that
20:20 < genehacker> surplus store for old electronics crap?
20:20 < kanzure> "Clinton works assiduously at his friendships. When Loewe got back to Germany after his Fulbright time, the letters began, in Clinton's exquisite script. "Like works of art," says Loewe."
20:20 < kanzure> "and the regular summons to the gatherings of the clan of the FOBs."
20:20 < kanzure> "He was invited to the three-day party that Clinton threw at Oxford, which climaxed in a magnificently illegal all-night barbecue on the roof of venerable University College" meh
20:21 < fenn> sorry, 2 miles south of google.. a bit different eh
20:21 < genehacker> the one that has old windows OS disks in their original containers of evil?
20:21 < genehacker> the one that still has a Commodore 64 section?
20:22 < fenn> a BBQ doesn't sound "magnificently illegal" (unless they were BBQ'ing something unusual)
20:22 < kanzure> "They have also been, for two decades, Clinton's little-known asset, a private think tank with an extraordinary range of skills. The FOBs include foreign-policy specialists, economists and trade experts, health-care consultants and legal eagles, experts on European social policies and even Kremlinologists"
20:23 < genehacker> a barbecue on the roof of a college
20:23 < genehacker> you know there's a giant parabolic mirror on top of ETC building on the campus?
20:23 < genehacker> hmmmm......
20:24 < genehacker> just need a sunny day and something to barbecue....
20:24 < kanzure> someone at the ycombinator meetup recommended this: http://www.amazon.com/Never-Eat-Alone-Secrets-Relationship/dp/0385512058
20:24 -!- any12166828 is now known as katsmeow
20:25 < kanzure> but i thought that was obvious
20:25 < genehacker> self-help books tend to have low success
20:25 < genehacker> according to some studies
20:25 < fenn> (give it a minute to upload) http://fennetic.net/irc/etc_roof_4031611781.jpg
20:26 < kanzure> self-help books largely help the authors
20:26 < kanzure> but "never eat alone" is, itself, good advice (the saying; i can't speak for the book with the title)
20:26 < genehacker> hmm...
20:27 < genehacker> I'm assuming you didn't take that picture fenn?
20:27 < fenn> nah it was some professor whose name i forgot
20:27 < genehacker> I really need to go up there sometime
20:28 < fenn> timothy silverman
20:28 < fenn> he has some other cool roof photos
20:28 < genehacker> I also need to figure out how to use fscking SR3d builder
20:29 < kanzure> tim is a professor? wtf
20:29 < kanzure> he has an office on the 3rd floor of etc, i thought he was a grad student
20:29 < fenn> is this the mirror you were talking about? http://www.flickr.com/photos/31143498@N03/4032363714/
20:29 < fenn> kanzure: he might be a grad student, i dunno
20:29 < kanzure> definitely a grad student
20:29 < kanzure> he was in here once, iirc
20:30 < genehacker> I have no idea fenn
20:30 < genehacker> I don't think so
20:30 < genehacker> how the heck did that get up there?
20:31 < genehacker> wonder if it's leftover from the coldwar or some prof got it to piss off the astronomers in the building over...
20:32 < kanzure> http://www.ohanda.org
20:33 < kanzure> http://www.gosh2009.ca/wiki/images/Ohanda_piksel.pdf
20:34 < kanzure> "OHANDA (Open Hardware and Design Alliance) is an initiative to foster sustainable sharing of open hardware and design. It was started at the GOSH!-Grounding Open Source Hardware summit at the Banff Centre in July 2009 and one of the first goals of the project is to build a repository for open hardware design which includes a certification model and a registration service."
20:34 < kanzure> Jürgen Neumann, Tuomo Tammenpãã, Gisle Frøysland, Bengt Sjölén
20:34 < kanzure> (08:35:34 PM) Brian Degger: onhandra is new, so its doing that strange thing of starting with a trademark (they are designers)
20:35 < kanzure> sigh
20:35 < kanzure> how are they different from harkopen, liquidware, bildr, actualhardware, unptnt, instructables, thingiverse, 
20:37 < kanzure> eh i guess that pdf explains it
20:44 < kanzure> (08:44:24 PM) Brian Degger: and now something totally different :http://simplemachines.it/index2.html a single board computer under TAPR OHL, at the 2 protypes + 100 sample board stage
20:46 < fenn> meh
20:46 < fenn> i forget, does the TAPR license actually work?
20:51 < hundred-ideas> hey, bildr *sounds* amazing... so is it vaporware?
20:51 < kanzure> the guy behind it, adam, is just some "designer"
20:51 < kanzure> all these designers are total fakes because they can't design worth shit
20:51 < kanzure> they just come up with graphics and art and call themselves design engineers
20:51 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
20:52  * kanzure wishes people would realize that art is allowed to *do* stuff
20:52 < genehacker> heh
20:52 < fenn> check out the "spin" feature: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageGallery.aspx?CurImage=17-366-014-TS&SpinSet=17-366-014-RS&ISList=17-366-014-Z01%2c17-366-014-Z02%2c17-366-014-Z03%2c17-366-014-Z04%2c17-366-014-Z05%2c17-366-014-Z06&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16817366014&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=SABRENT%20EC-UST25%20Aluminum%202.5%22%20USB2.0%20to%20SATA%20External%20Enclosure
20:52 < fenn> oh crap
20:52 < genehacker>  I can attest to that
20:52 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: i talked with adam (of bildr.org) over the phone
20:52 < fenn> http://tinyurl.com/yfxdwly
20:52 < kanzure> basically he has this svn-backend that he's been working on, but it's no where near ready, and he sounded interested in skdb
20:52 < genehacker> for example, making products that are thermodynamically impossible
20:53 < kanzure> but ultimately it seems like he's not interested in moving forward
20:53 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@2001:0:53aa:64c:2ca3:3941:52c6:ef50] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:53 < JayDugger> Just lurking...ignore me, please.
20:53 < genehacker> spin feature?
20:53 < fenn> JayDugger: traditional lurking protocol dictates you just don't say anything
20:53 < genehacker> that's fairly old
20:53 < fenn> genehacker: the little scrubber on the bottom
20:54 < kanzure> JayDugger: doin it wrong
20:54 < fenn> is it? i've never seen it before (i havent been paying attention)
20:54 < genehacker> ???
20:54 -!- Semikolon [~Semikolon@c-171ce055.438-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #hplusroadmap
20:54 < genehacker> never seen it before?
20:54 < genehacker> I've seen it back when I was younger
20:54 < hundred-ideas> is unptnt dead?
20:55 < genehacker> back in 2000
20:55 < genehacker> I think
20:55 < genehacker> or 2002
20:55 < hundred-ideas> or unptnt = actualhardware?
20:55 < fenn> well, i want to do something like the spin thingy for skdb part previews
20:55 < genehacker> it's been around for years
20:55 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: unptnt is dead and =~ actualhardware
20:55 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: unptnt is basically dave rauchwerk's project, he's in the austin area and we hang out fairly frequently
20:56 < genehacker> well you'll have to get a special platform that rotates stuff and makes a camera take pictures
20:56 < kanzure> he's more than happy having me do all the work for him :P
20:56 < hundred-ideas> ohanda?
20:56 < hundred-ideas> oops I was at ohanda.com
20:56 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: ohanda is just some art project: http://www.gosh2009.ca/wiki/images/Ohanda_piksel.pdf
20:56 < hundred-ideas> and what do you think about ifixit?
20:57 < kanzure> looked like an instructables clone
20:57 < kanzure> but
20:57 < kanzure> if you're able to get a word in for skdb with it, i'd definitely be willing to do work
20:57 < kanzure> to make that happen
20:57 < fenn> the idea is "use trademark instead of copyright for copylefting hardware"
20:57 < fenn> i'm not a lawyer but i dont think it would work
20:57 < kanzure> heh
20:58 < kanzure> there was this guy at a bus stop today who looked *just like bre* and i asked him, "are you bre?"
20:58 < kanzure> he wasn't, but i explained who i thought he was anyway
20:58 < kanzure> turns out this guy has extensive knowledge of 3d printers
20:58 < kanzure> maybe it comes with the glasses and gray hair
20:58 < fenn> clones
20:58 < kanzure> AWESOME!~~3`4332rcdsa
20:58 < fenn> i'm convinced there was a secret cloning experiment in the 80's
20:59 < kanzure> note to mac: this is sarcasm.
20:59 < kanzure> please do not be like bre, ever
21:00 < kanzure> also i came across an interesting tidbit today- facebook friends are limited to 5k
21:01 < genehacker> he does?
21:01 < genehacker> odd
21:01 < genehacker> what a coincidence
21:01 < genehacker> maybe he's bre's doppelganger
21:01 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_source_hardware_projects
21:01 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: I think the skdb / gnuasha team needs to co-opt some of these designers
21:02 < hundred-ideas> you all want the same thing
21:02 < kanzure> http://www.gosh2009.ca/wiki/index.php/List_of_Open_Hardware_Projects
21:02 < hundred-ideas> and they have skills that could greatly enhance your efforts
21:02 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: yeah but nobody listens to me
21:02 < kanzure> i would love to work with them
21:03 < hundred-ideas> Ok.  Well, one of my few skills is outreach
21:03 < hundred-ideas> so... maybe we could have a big party.
21:03 < kanzure> well, look at the bottom
21:03 < kanzure> http://piksel.no/pipermail/gosh/2010-March/thread.html
21:03 < kanzure> in the time it took you to type those messages :P i already got a hold of 'em
21:03 < kanzure> so.. yeah
21:04 < kanzure> but maybe you could convince them or something
21:04 < kanzure> ooh ooh, convince zach hoeken while you're at it
21:04 < kanzure> pretty please?
21:04 < genehacker> you should have asked bre to take a message to Zach's secret mountain hideout
21:04 < JayDugger> There's also a tracking list at OSHBM Requested Contributors. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgY8iyNeuVgwdEY3MFFtUmFueFdlMXNLOHI0R1dhUmc&hl=en
21:05 < kanzure> oh right
21:05 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: have you seen that list?
21:05 < hundred-ideas> [reading...] no
21:05 < kanzure> actually, i know most of those people
21:05 < JayDugger> More generally, http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgY8iyNeuVgwdEY3MFFtUmFueFdlMXNLOHI0R1dhUmc&hl=en
21:05 < kanzure> what i really need is a list of people that i should be following up with that i don't already know
21:05 < kanzure> (some of these GOSH people are obvious people who should be on the list)
21:06 -!- chupacabra [~chupacabr@cpe-70-112-123-173.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
21:07 < kanzure> what i really need from artsy peeps is some visual representation of "apt-get"
21:07 < kanzure> for goodness' sake, there is *no* diagram of "the process of apt-get"
21:07 < kanzure> jrayhawk: unless you know of one?
21:07 < JayDugger> Why not spend some grant money on that idea?
21:07 < JayDugger> It seems generally useful.
21:08 < kanzure> because i don't know anyone who has an idea for it yet
21:08 < JayDugger> See if Anders Sandberg will do it. He could, but I suspect you could find someone equally competent in your area.
21:08 < kanzure> anders does art?
21:08 < JayDugger> ?
21:08 < JayDugger> Yes.
21:08 < JayDugger> (So much for lurking.)
21:08 < kanzure> i'd be willing to put forward a reasonable bounty
21:09 < kanzure> because i've tried and tried, and just can't get anything
21:09 < JayDugger> Or Winchell Chung.
21:09 < JayDugger> Hang on, let me find some links...
21:09 < kanzure> i'm not familiar with chung
21:09 < JayDugger> Did the art for Ogre?
21:10 < JayDugger> And Attack Vector:Tactical?
21:10 < JayDugger> I appear to be the only wargamer here. :)
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21:10 < hundred-ideas> back. was reading http://piksel.no/pipermail/gosh/2010-March/000338.html.  Brian, you should publish that on skdb.org as an introductory essay.  It's the best exposition I have heard.
21:11 < kanzure> is it better than the video
21:11 < JayDugger> Different media, different messages?
21:12 < hundred-ideas> exactly.  writing requires more active involvement from the audience, too, and can be more efficient than video.  plus it will increase your googleability.
21:13 < hundred-ideas> as for visualizing apt-get, I have seen some cool visualizations of git workflows... probably some of the same visual models would work.
21:16 < kanzure> ok changed the page: http://gnusha.org/
21:18 < hundred-ideas> center the lower div containing the text
21:18 < hundred-ideas> plz.
21:18 < hundred-ideas> cheers to brian for reaching out for GOSH, btw.  
21:19 < kanzure> heh apt-get as a political statement: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/sudo-apt-get-remove-mono-common.jpg
21:19 < kanzure> (mono-common has been infecting ubuntu karmic recently)
21:21 -!- klafka [~klafka@cpe-66-66-5-254.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
21:22 < kanzure> so, forrest, jacob, letti, and another guy came over today from diybio-houston
21:22 < kanzure> it turns out that the reason they came down was me
21:22 < kanzure> so that was cool
21:25 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://gnusha.org/ better?
21:25 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: ... it's ok
21:26 < kanzure> i can't center it exactly because centering it would center each individual line
21:26 < kanzure> also, i suck at xhtml
21:27 < hundred-ideas> use this as the style: timoreilly
21:27 < hundred-ideas> oooops
21:27 < hundred-ideas> no no no don't use timoreilly
21:28 < hundred-ideas> style="width:600px; margin:auto;"
21:28  * hundred-ideas works in firefox.
21:28 < hundred-ideas> anyway, how was meeting jacob?
21:29 < kanzure> went well
21:29 < kanzure> i'm in firefox and this looks painful: http://gnusha.org/
21:29 < hundred-ideas> (maybe even use 550px as width)
21:30 < kanzure> ah, better
21:34 < hundred-ideas> ok anyway, so how is Jacob's incubator startup thing developing?
21:34 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure it's going to morph into the gnusha co-op/incubator even if not in brand
21:35 < kanzure> basically a lot of people are having this same idea, so i see no reason to separate the initiatives per-se
21:35 < hundred-ideas> cool
21:35 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://ikiwiki.info/ i don't think you've seen this yet
21:36 < kanzure> but basically the idea is to embed the hardware's wiki inside the .git dev repository
21:36 < kanzure> then you just take the .git where-ever you want and host it however you'd like
21:36 < kanzure> so having an incubator sponsor these repositories, or projects that build on top of open source hardware, etc., is good
21:37 < kanzure> getting discounts on co-op hardware/kits is doable too for kickstarter-like-projects
21:37 < kanzure> lots of opportunity :)
21:38 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: have you read that skdb update email before? i think i sent it to you in january
21:38 < kanzure> but it has a good overview of what i think would make a good incubator/co-op rigup
21:38 < hundred-ideas> maybe, but it's so long I may not have retained all of it
21:42 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: also there's http://oshwbank.org/ and http://cloudfab.com/ to add to the list of "name squatters in the open source hardware space" (i.e. people not doin' it :( right)
21:51 < hundred-ideas> is oshwbank the same as liquidhardware?
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21:51 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: no
21:59 < hundred-ideas> so what's the latest w/ OSHBM?
22:00 < kanzure> i have an MBA grad dood looking it over and coming up with some way to better present the market data
22:00 < kanzure> (cam houser)
22:01 < JayDugger> Found a use for his skills? 
22:04 < hundred-ideas> Have you mailed me the prospectus?
22:04 < hundred-ideas> I recall a large google doc...
22:05 < kanzure> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ad_WP5lmDYDzZHQ4MmZxMl8xM2ZrMmZjOWZ0&hl=en
22:05 < kanzure> if that links doesn't work, try: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Ad_WP5lmDYDzZHQ4MmZxMl8xM2ZrMmZjOWZ0&hl=en
22:05 < kanzure> hm that's the same link
22:06 < kanzure> i'd like to iron things out with jacob, joseph, vitaly, etc. on what they want the incubator/co-op to feel like before i move forward (so in the mean time i have the business mathy stuff getting more concrete)
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22:08 < kanzure> opensciencefund.org doesn't play directly into the co-op/incubator model (at least by name) but i think jacob's behind it either way
22:08 < kanzure> there's def. support from diybio-houston on it
22:15 < hundred-ideas> hah the pdf printout of the gnusha gdoc is 113 pages
22:16 < kanzure> there's a lot of white space
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22:19 < JayDugger> Time to commute. Good night, all. 
22:19 < kanzure> night
22:19 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@2001:0:53aa:64c:2ca3:3941:52c6:ef50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:38 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: flying people out for a conference costs a lot
22:38 < kanzure> let's say it costs the average participant $1k overall for the whole event
22:38 < hundred-ideas> yep
22:38 < kanzure> for 100 people, that's $100,000 that would have been better spent..
22:40 < kanzure> let's start with just getting them to chat on IRC :P
22:41 < katsmeow> they may prefer to spend $1k on flying than dl an irc client :-/
22:42 < kanzure> wtf
22:43 < kanzure> pay a kid $0.50 to install one, geebus
22:43 < kanzure> jeebus? geebus?
22:44 < katsmeow> i dunno <shrug>
22:51 < hundred-ideas> you're perspective on how the world should work and how people should act is respected but by no means shared
22:52 < genehacker> hmmm...
22:52 < katsmeow> "your are perspective...." ?
22:52 < genehacker> I think I just found an exponential
22:52 < katsmeow> lol
22:52 < genehacker> http://sites.google.com/site/cirospictures/787MaterialLay-downRates.jpg
22:52 < hundred-ideas> whoops, your
22:52 < hundred-ideas> getting late here
22:52 < katsmeow> ditto
22:53 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: that's like saying "people should give me $100k because it makes no sense to you"
22:53 < hundred-ideas> anyway, kanzure, I encourage you to post a scenario outlining how a virtual event might work.  It could be really cool - if everyone payed $500 to participate (instead of buying a flight, as you suggested), who knows how we could more efficiently use the money
22:54 < kanzure> i'd be willing to host and organize said event if you'd like
22:54 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: no it's not.  I'm not saying anyone should do anything, actually, and furthermore, the money wouldn't be going to me.  You're just being inflammatory.
22:54  * katsmeow smells a flame war
22:54 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: said event needs more elaboration.  I will elaborate on a physical meet-up if you will provide an alternative scenario with a more compelling use of the hypothetical travel costs
22:58 < kanzure> i think $100k could cover the equipment cost of 20 labs over
22:58 < kanzure> *diybio labs
23:01 < hundred-ideas> cool, all we need is a coherent vision
23:01 < hundred-ideas> good luck
23:01 < hundred-ideas> I'm off to bed
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23:07 < kanzure> uh oh mac is starting to sound like eliezer
23:07 < kanzure> coherent extrapolated visionlition
23:07 < kanzure> *volition
23:07 < kanzure> same thing
23:07 < kanzure> http://singinst.org/upload/CEV.html
23:52 < kanzure> http://sachachua.com/wp/2006/09/networking-is-about-being-memorable-the-art-of-the-deep-bump/
--- Day changed Tue Mar 16 2010
00:02 < kanzure> "and after every day he would write things down about their conversation on the back of the business card as well as write details about the person, such as what color their hair was and whether or not they had glasses"
00:02 < kanzure> "By the time he was governor of Arkansas he had over 12,000 cards like this. Before meeting with people he would always research this library and see if he had any personal details about this person."
00:02 < kanzure> glasses?
00:02 < kanzure> maybe it's a part of the master plan
00:04 < katsmeow> i wonder what the average search time was to look up "a someone with black hair about 5-10" ,, because putting them on hold 2hrs while looking thru the rolodex was prolly impolite
00:05 < kanzure> shhh! i'm searching >:o
00:08 < kanzure> there's a bill clinton joke in there somewhere about looking up tramps or something
00:12 < kanzure> heh, i like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/05/AR2009080504021.html
00:30 < kanzure> http://biopunk.hu/2010/03/15/on-mendeley-2/
00:34 < katsmeow> ya know, i thought *i* ranged far and wide online till i came in here
00:34 < katsmeow> if ifollowed allyourlinks, i couldn't irc at all!
00:52 < kanzure> fenn: why are you playing with xp_prg
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01:22 < fenn> kanzure: he's slightly less annoying in person
01:22 < fenn> and besides, it's a cool project
01:23 < katsmeow> xp_prg has a project?
01:24 < fenn> "What? It doesn't send an email telling you it has caught a mouse?"
01:29 < fenn> what is "oshbm" and should i care?
01:39 < fenn> katsmeow: he's building a "spikerbox" which is basically an amplifier with a speaker, as seen on backyardbrains.com
01:39 < fenn> katsmeow: you can see more here if you care: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvFJev6yOM
01:41 < katsmeow> i have no audio,, is xp the one in the pink top?
01:42 < katsmeow> i see no speaker or amplifier
01:42 < katsmeow> oh, there it is,, and 2 inch speaker ini a 3x3x6 inch aluminum box
01:43 < fenn> no, he's not in that video at all
01:43 < katsmeow> why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach?
01:44 < fenn> SCIENCE!
01:44 < katsmeow> to do what?
01:44 < fenn> to see what happens when you stick amplifier leads into it and poke it with a stick
01:45 < katsmeow> it makes static sounds
01:45 < katsmeow> rapidfire pops
01:45 < fenn> you can record the signal on a computer and do more analysis
01:46 < katsmeow> if you say so
01:46 < fenn> well, i did
01:46 < katsmeow> "things we leaned about neural firing in frozen roach legs" ?
01:47 < fenn> this is the point where if i were katsmeow i would bitch about how nobody understands me and i'm just doing it all wrong and should just go drown myself in the ocean
01:47 < fenn> but i'm not, so if you really want to understand what it's all about, please continue
01:48 < katsmeow> me continue? my question remains unanswered
01:48 < fenn> what was the question?
01:48 < katsmeow> more indepth to [01:44] <katsmeow> why is that guy cuttingth elegs off a frozen roach?
01:49 < fenn> to record pulses from its disembodied nervous system and show people that it's possible with $20 of components
01:50 < fenn> also there is some speculation about cyborg roach exo-exoskeletons if you watch the other video
01:50 < fenn> but the real purpose is he's starting a business selling science kits
01:50 < katsmeow> but kids in science classes in the 1970's did that to frogs, docs call it "nerve conduction tests", and i can tell you it's bloody painfull
01:51 < fenn> apparently times have changed, we never ever did anything even remotely as cool as this when i was in school
01:51 < katsmeow> oh
01:51 < katsmeow> i refused to do the frog bit, i took an F instead
01:51 < fenn> tim says he never heard nerve impulses until halfway through grad school
01:51 < fenn> (in neuroscience)
01:51 < fenn> (other tim, not xp_prg)
01:52 < fenn> katsmeow: does the nerve conduction test make the leg twitch?
01:53 < katsmeow> yeas
01:53 < fenn> ok i think that is the opposite of what this does
01:53 < katsmeow> they send an impulse in, kill it, and listen for the echo
01:54 < fenn> why would there be an echo?
01:54 < katsmeow> the point is often to diagnose the route to the spine and back
01:54 < fenn> ug, they're doing this to a live frog?
01:54 < katsmeow> no, they did it to me and other humans
01:54 < fenn> holy crap
01:55 < fenn> i forgot you had nerve problems
01:55 < katsmeow> you don't understand me, i'm going to bitcha nd go sail waya
01:55 < katsmeow> :-P
01:56 < fenn> just hold still while we chop those useless legs off and attach a gleaming translucent purple exoskeleton
01:57 < katsmeow> they are now more painful than useless, but in a sense if it hurts too much to use, then they are useless
01:59 < fenn> <3 ebook torrents
02:01 < fenn> "generation Y" - i didn't even know we had a name
02:01 < fenn> generation "why me" is more like it
02:05 < katsmeow> i should goto bed
02:08 < fenn> kanzure: i'd like you to provide a service for me
02:08 < fenn> kanzure: make a big linkdump of messages on OM and diybio that are actually worth reading, and then i can delete the other 10k
02:09 < fenn> and then i wouldnt feel bad about having 10k unread messages in my inbox
02:10 < fenn> like rec.humor.funny
02:11 < fenn> hm of course then i run into the problem that 50% of the spam is from this "bryan bishop" guy
02:11 < fenn> d'eaux
02:13 < fenn> > Perhaps a simple monthly email thread calling for an exposition on
02:13 < fenn> > everyone's latest hacks would be sufficient,
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03:32 < Utopiah> http://www.inter-chem.biz/details/63
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04:07 < Utopiah> http://hackaday.com/2010/03/15/3d-printing-on-a-much-larger-scale/
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04:11 < Utopiah> http://www.d-shape.com/
04:17 < Utopiah> totally sounds like http://rockprinter.com/
04:37 < Utopiah> kanzure: http://fora.tv/2010/02/18/Robin_Dunbar_How_Many_Friends_Does_One_Person_Need
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05:10 < Utopiah> http://craft.usc.edu/
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08:41 < kanzure> Utopiah: i counter your dunbar number with http://groups.google.com/group/diytranshumanist/browse_frm/thread/da6ee0594580dc1f#
08:43 < Utopiah> I remembered that, that's why I posted the short talk
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12:22 < kanzure> http://www.betterhumans.com/blogs/alexandra_carmichael/archive/2008/09/15/Open-Source-Health-Research-Plan-.aspx
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13:20 < kanzure> i don't remember "honey, i shrunk the audience" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113325/
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13:21 < kanzure> hello romulox 
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13:36 < kanzure> 13:20 < hundred-ideas> anyway, a bunch of transhumanist peeps are also over in #hplusroadmap
13:36 < kanzure> 13:21 < hundred-ideas> beware, <ideology> is a big un-closed tag over there
13:36 < kanzure> um
13:36 < kanzure> [citation needed]
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13:37 < hundred-ideas> you don't consider yourself or the general tone of this channel ideological?
13:38 < kanzure> it's easy to find fault when you go looking for it, mac
13:39 < fenn> i think it's good that channels have topics
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13:43 < fenn> blog is a four letter word
13:46 < fenn> i dont understand why this says nothing about eye tracking http://www.baychi.org/calendar/20100316/ presumably that's the topic of the event
14:00 < hundred-ideas> Isn't adobe the 2nd largest software company in the USA?
14:00 < hundred-ideas> "New Business Research Funnel"... bleh
14:12 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_largest_software_companies
14:12 < fenn> microsoft word is its own company?
14:15 < fenn> god microsoft is pathetic. i just spent ten minutes searching for the "change password" button in "windows live msn passport hotmail" (nowhere in the help wizard) only to have it puke and lock me out of my account once i actually found it
14:15 < fenn> and then give me a "windows live is experiencing technical difficulties" when i tried  "forgot my password"
14:27 < fenn> hmm this wasn't quite what i intended
14:27 < fenn> "This Week's Menlo Park Calendar: 1,097 Meetups Nearby (178kB)"
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14:37 < kanzure> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/BCFCFLY
14:37 < kanzure> alternative to tito's data lock-in
14:38 < fenn> can't you just ask him to release the data?
14:38 < fenn> i havent been reading diybio
14:40 < kanzure> he said no
14:40 < kanzure> he also said that it has "personally identifying information" on it
14:41 < kanzure> (on the other one) and that this is why he wouldn't release the data
14:46 < hundred-ideas> I thought that was pretty flaky
14:47 < kanzure> yeah i don't trust tito
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14:48 < kanzure> hey rektide 
14:48 < rektide> hello kanzure, been a long time
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14:48 < kanzure> KingJacob: did you show mac the designs yet?
14:50 < KingJacob> I think he's seen my poor sketches
14:50 < kanzure> KingJacob: would you mind if i publish a test on http://fivesecondtest.com/ for the design?
14:51 < kanzure> opensciencefund.org memory test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/HqIhlOwD
14:51 < kanzure> something like that
14:52 < kanzure> opensciencefund.org click test: http://fivesecondtest.com/test/KnY43u3k
14:52 < kanzure> you can send around these links and get more feedback on the design
14:52 < kanzure> the click test will give you a heat map of where people click
14:53 < KingJacob> I'm actually waiting on another designers treatment
14:53 < kanzure> treatment?
14:53 < KingJacob> so we'll have to decide between the two
14:54 < KingJacob> A treatment is a quick draft, to show what you can do, 
14:54 < kanzure> i fell in love with fivesecondtest.com as a way to gather rapid feedback on designs
14:55 < KingJacob> yeah, doing analytics like that'll be important
15:00 < hundred-ideas> So what's your vision once the site is done?  Where does inventory come from and where do profits go?
15:03 < kanzure> http://threader.ecs.soton.ac.uk/lists/boaiforum/2005.html NPG details 2011 open access pricing policy
15:07 < KingJacob> First the easy question,
15:08 < KingJacob> profits would be used to fund research, educate and improve projects
15:10 < KingJacob> Inventory would come from the source that is most affordable and efficient
15:10 < hundred-ideas> cool
15:11 < kanzure> ugh "I was confused for a moment, I thought this was regarding the Hacker Space in Austin... hence hackerspace in the subject line. So there are many hackerspace groups all around the country?"
15:13 < KingJacob> lol, who sent you that?
15:14 < kanzure> someone from the austin robot group named "john"
15:15 < KingJacob> Hopefully he was pleasantly surprised to find out there are 100s of hackerspaces
15:16 < kanzure> i linked him over to http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces
15:19 < kanzure> KingJacob: joseph says that he will add something to the diybio FAQ by the end of the week about his progress on helping organize an open science conference
15:25 < KingJacob> thanks.
15:28 < hundred-ideas> has anybody met greg or tim from http://www.backyardbrains.com/?
15:28 < fenn> yeah
15:29 < fenn> greg is pretty quiet
15:30 < fenn> anything in particular?
15:32 < hundred-ideas> SpikerBox, LavaAmp, Dremelfuge, Pearl Gel Box are all on my list of more-or-less real biotech kits, but I don't know any of the SpikerBox guys
15:32 < hundred-ideas> Am I forgetting any?
15:35 < kanzure> scitoys probably has something (simon quellen field)
15:35 < hundred-ideas> hmmm
15:35 < kanzure> hm those aren't really open source
15:35 < kanzure> the ones you listed, i mean
15:35  * kanzure hasn't checked out spikerbox though
15:35 < hundred-ideas> That's true.
15:36 < fenn> how about simon field's spectroscope?
15:36 < hundred-ideas> [recalling last conversation about challenges of defining open source hardware]
15:36 < kanzure> um, it is *not* challenging to figure out that lava amp is not open source
15:36 < hundred-ideas> that's *definitely* not open source.  Simon has said he will not release the source code
15:37 < hundred-ideas> well anyway, let's pursue a parallel enumeration of biotech kits
15:37 < kanzure> then why not just list the catalog from carolina, merk, sigma-aldrich, etc.
15:37 < hundred-ideas> there is also the NEB biobrick assembly kit, which is essentially 6 enzymes
15:37 < fenn> if the use of an enzyme is patented, is it still "open source"?
15:39 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: have you read the TAPR license, or the creative commons license, or anything like that?
15:39 < hundred-ideas> I have read the cc license
15:39 < kanzure> ok
15:39 < kanzure> um why am i listing so few licenses? fenn, halp?
15:40 < hundred-ideas> yeah, don't forget the WTFPL
15:40 < Utopiah> :)
15:40 < kanzure> isn't that just the BSD?
15:40 < fenn> kanzure: all of the hardware licenses suck
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15:40 < kanzure> yes but instead of saying "oh well, let's just claim that pearlbiotech is open source", how about we figure out why they suck
15:40 < fenn> there was that GOSH thing with trademarks yesterday
15:41 < kanzure> honestly i thought there was more than three
15:41 < hundred-ideas> Did Stallman write anything before emacs?  like, gcc?
15:42 < fenn> pff it's simple; does it meet the four freedoms? does it provide design files in the preferred format for modification if they exist?
15:42 < kanzure> ohanda, TAPR, cc (which isn't really for hardware but people use it for hardware anyway), gfdl (documentation), and then the software brothers like GPL and BSD
15:42 < kanzure> fenn: i think that OSI compatibility is definitely a requirement
15:42 < fenn> hundred-ideas: he wrote a lot of software at MIT
15:42 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: what about the OSI, have you read the "open source definition" doc?
15:43 < fenn>     * Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose.
15:43 < fenn>     * Freedom 1: The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish.
15:43 < fenn>     * Freedom 2: The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor.
15:43 < fenn>     * Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits.
15:43 < fenn> no need to read lengthy pontifications from pedantic pundits
15:44 < hundred-ideas> well, I wonder if this discussion is soft of cart-before-horse.  If you go back and look at the history of the GNU project, did stallman start with a license or free software
15:44 < kanzure> opencores.org uses the LGPL O_o (which is good but odd)
15:44 < hundred-ideas> My point is this: what exactly is the need for the license RIGHT NOW.
15:44 < fenn> hundred-ideas: he started just writing code, and then the world decided to restrict access to software
15:44 < fenn> it was common courtesy to give source code to any and all who asked
15:45 < hundred-ideas> why don't we just focus on making a bunch of great hardware and wetware, spending no more than 12 hours in the first year considering how we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with licenses (i.e. enabling others to patent / appropriate the work)
15:45 < fenn> just release your filed under ANY license, i dont care which
15:46 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: the problem is that people don't have that "courtesy" any more
15:46 < kanzure> they don't release the files at all
15:46 < kanzure> and then they have the balls to call it "open source"
15:46 < fenn> i gotta catch a train, ciao
15:46 < hundred-ideas> Ok. done. there.  we'll do what fenn just said.  let's just promote that and stop making noise and wasting attention w/r/t/ untested hardware legal agreements
15:47 < kanzure> how about this instead,
15:47 < kanzure> a community check list for determining whether or not the open source definitions are met
15:47 < kanzure> "is this person's claim legit? or are they bullshitting us" sort of thing
15:48 < hundred-ideas> I mean, someone comes over here and says "I want to provide my gadget as 'open source'" and then they end up totally confused and depressed.  Sure.  A preflight checklist would be perfect.  And a little badge for websites / hardware.  
15:48 < kanzure> lots of people waste lots of time following rabbits down the rabbit holes
15:49 < parolang> You can email the fsf or gnu people and ask them about free licensing for hardware.  They have a lot of experience with this sort of thing and, even more importantly, lawyers who know what they are talking about :)
15:50 < kanzure> parolang: have you done that?
15:50 < parolang> no
15:50 < hundred-ideas> I nominate kanzure to do that.  unless parolang  has. 
15:50 < kanzure> because each time i do that- and each time other people i know do that- they get back emails saying "this is not our focus"
15:50 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: please search the archives for the deets
15:50 < kanzure> yesterday i saw the GOSH! people got a negatory response too
15:50 < parolang> kanzure: Didn't realize it was such a dead end.
15:50 < jrayhawk> I don't know that the FSF has ever made a both legal and sensible license.
15:50 < kanzure> :(
15:51 < kanzure> coming from jrayhawk, that burns
15:51 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: http://piksel.no/pipermail/gosh/2010-March/000326.html
15:51 < kanzure> that response was for the trademark-in-particular idea though
15:51 < jrayhawk> GPLv2 has a lot of ambiguity, GPLv3 is more contract than license, and GFDL is just a disaster.
15:51 < kanzure> let me see if i can dig up anything else
15:52 < parolang> I'll ask on #sflc see if anyone answers.
15:52 < kanzure> oh yay
15:52 < kanzure> fenn started a thread in 2008 about this
15:52 < kanzure> http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/814b2a47a602cac0/e7235e013e117917?lnk=gst&q=free+software+foundation+license#e7235e013e117917
15:52 < kanzure> oops, nevermind
15:52 < hundred-ideas> can we just use the ohanda logo, the 4 OSI principles, and circle back in a year and see what would be more appropriate?
15:53 < kanzure> in what sense? like the "community checklist process"?
15:53 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what are your opinions on that idea? having projects brought up and vetted if they seem to be swaying from OSI-like principles? "oh lookie, these people are lying fucks"
15:54 < jrayhawk> The DSFG is less poorly thought out, but it depends on your goals.
15:54 < kanzure> the problem with the community vetting process is that it could still come back to bite you in the ass
15:55 < jrayhawk> The OSI, by the way, basically exists to rubber-stamp bad Sun decisions.
15:55 < kanzure> like if you use a hardware design, and then later you start selling kits
15:55 < kanzure> and then the original guy who made the first design who was "vetted" decides to start suing everyone for all they're worth
15:55 < hundred-ideas> kanzure: that's theoretical.  I think we are getting tripped up in theory.  let's act.
15:55 < kanzure> that's not theoretical, sadly
15:56 < hundred-ideas> please point to someone you know trying to sell biotech kits who was sued
15:56 < kanzure> does it have to be biotech?
15:56 < hundred-ideas> (tito doesn't count).
15:56 < jrayhawk> Well, what you should be vetting is the license things are released under, but you guys have even more of a patent problem than the software world does.
15:56 < parolang> Would you mind if I invited someone from #sflc here? (software freedom law center, softwarefreedom.org)
15:56 < kanzure> parolang: i would encourage it :)
15:57 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: why do you think kits are different from software?
15:57 < kanzure> there are many, many examples of people getting sued around GPL'd code
15:57 < hundred-ideas> I have to to a meeting shortly, but let me reiterate
15:57 < kanzure> most recently, bruce perens had to step up to the plate to help a poor guy out
15:57 < jrayhawk> Where was this?
15:58 < jrayhawk> I wasn't aware Bruce Perens had done anything beside troll peole for the past ten years.
15:58 < kanzure> well it wasn't bruce perens who did the lawyering, but
15:58 < jrayhawk> people
15:58 < kanzure> grr where did this link go
15:58 -!- strages [~strages@c-76-29-243-225.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:58 < kanzure> http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/08-1001.pdf
15:58 < kanzure> jacobsen v. katzer/kamind
15:59 -!- aaronw [~aaronw@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info] has joined #hplusroadmap
15:59 < kanzure> http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/5837
15:59 < parolang> aaronw is the guy fro #sflc...he says he can't provide legal advice, but can probably point you in the right direction :)
15:59 < parolang> Welcome aaronw and thanks for joining :)
16:00 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Quit: shepazu]
16:00 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: i'm not convinced that foresight is unwarranted
16:00 < aaronw> No problem, parolang.  So what the hell are you up to here at #hplusroadmap?
16:00 < jrayhawk> it was kinda neat to see the artistic license hold up; it was one of the weakest licenses the OSI ever approved
16:02 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: more discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_frm/thread/d24620087310febe/038310777a4516a7?lnk=gst&q=TAPR#038310777a4516a7
16:02 < parolang> aaronw: I think they want to apply free software principles to hardware.  They want to ensure the share and share-alike principle to hardware designs which can be distributed over the internet.
16:02 < hundred-ideas> I think we are wasting a disproportionate amount of time trying to figure out a license or agreement or pool or other legal vehicle for building a hardware commons.  I recommend we consider the situation briefly today, work hard for a year, and reassess to see what worked and what didn't, who got sued or taken advantage of, etc.  I don't disagree that there may be prior case law suggesting abuse in the absence of legal protection, but I don't
16:02 < hundred-ideas> having a concrete answer today is required before engaging in "open" hardware innovation & distribution.
16:03 < jrayhawk> A ounce of legal prevention is worth three years of your life being wasted in a courtroom.
16:03 < jrayhawk> It's really best to get it sorted out beforehand :)
16:03 < kanzure> it's okay, it's probably my ass that is going to be on the line, not hundred-ideas'
16:04 < hundred-ideas> ouch
16:04 < jrayhawk> Okay, threeyears of Bryan's life.
16:04 < jrayhawk> Which means go crazy, guys!
16:04 < kanzure> yippee!
16:04 < kanzure> oh wait
16:04 < kanzure> do i get conjugal visits?
16:04 < parolang> aaronw: One of the projects that members of this channel have been working on is skdb which has been described briefly as "apt-get for hardware" using automated machining tools or projects such as 3d printers (e.g., reprap) to fabricate real objects..
16:05 < kanzure> aaronw: brief article overview: http://hplusmagazine.com/articles/toys-tools/hackerspace-your-garage-downloading-diy-hardware-over-web
16:05 < hundred-ideas> gah.  build shit, be successful, gain *real* experience, feedback onto legal practices, iterate.
16:05 < kanzure> but if you want a super-long introduction plus videos: http://gnusha.org/
16:05 < kanzure> i don't think you're listening
16:05 < hundred-ideas> If I have a kit tomorrow, or Romie does, or Jacob does, or Tito does, or Cathal does... what are we supposed to do?  You guys can't give us an effing answer.
16:06 < kanzure> what??
16:06 < kanzure> if you have it tomorrow, where did all your open source development come from?
16:06 < kanzure> i think i just failed to understand your question
16:08 < aaronw> parolang, I see.  Well, the short answer is that there's no ready-made answer for hardware.  You can license design files under FOSS copyright licenses, but an "open source hardware license" doesn't make as much sense for a few reasons.
16:08 < jrayhawk> Anyway, let me know if you happen to run across this "Bruce Perens actually did something useful" incident you claim occured. I have a lot of interest in tracking free software trolls.
16:08 < aaronw> The first being that hardware isn't automatically subject to an exclusive right, e.g. copyright.
16:09 < hundred-ideas> Ok, so here's a hypothetical for you: I am building a multiaxis microscope slide platform actuated by servos (the most closed component) and an arduino, designed to be cut on a lasercutter out of acrylic.  The ardunio / processing source code is available via github under an appropriate OS license (you recommend which?) and I can provide the SVG files for the acrylic in any format you want.  What precisely would you like me to do, with the on
16:09 < hundred-ideas> constraint that it be doable within a timeframe deemed reasonable by my peers?
16:10 < kanzure> publish and license a bill of materials, for one
16:10 < kanzure> to go along with the project i mean
16:10 < parolang> aaronw: But the design files are?  Because that's how the hardware will be duplicated.
16:11 < parolang> As far as hardware creating hardware...is there any reason why an exclusive right here would be desirable?
16:11 < kanzure> jrayhawk: are there gpl'd projects that have mixed licensed content? like cc licensed art
16:12 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: from a legal standpoint, along with those files, a description of licenses for distribution and so on;
16:13 < aaronw> parolang, at least some design files are probably subject to copyright, yes.
16:13 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: from an skdb stand point, the BOM would be mandatory
16:13 < aaronw> subject to all of copyright's usual exceptions and disclaimers.
16:14 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: so, i think that solves the data questions? but still open are other issues like, what happens if i start building and selling kits of those multi-axis microscope slide platforms (which is something that i think we should allow for)
16:15 < kanzure> ooh
16:15 < aaronw> kanzure, have you talked to the makerbot guys about that?
16:15 < aaronw> they've dealt with that issue, i believe.
16:15 < kanzure> no, they don't reply to my emails
16:15 < kanzure> their content is CC-licensed IIRC
16:15 < kanzure> but i haven't heard of a case of someone selling makerbot industry gear?
16:16 < kanzure> *someone else
16:16 < kanzure> how do co-ops that physically produce stuff work?
16:16 < kanzure> does any member get to say "this is being produced on behalf of the co-op"
16:17 < kanzure> because then you could just let anyone become a member of the co-op for $0
16:18 < aaronw> kanzure, Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them to end users
16:18 < hundred-ideas> I have to go to my meeting, but I am not satisfied I know what to do.  You just gave me vague instructions.  I was asking for specific instructions, like "publish the svg files of the laser cut parts with a CC-BY license... " etc
16:18 -!- hundred-ideas [~100ideas@140.247.248.192] has quit [Quit: hundred-ideas]
16:18 < kanzure> hundred-ideas: ok. i agree that specific answers are needed
16:18 < aaronw> because the copyright licenses presumably don't apply to the built hardware, they couldn't stop the guy from doing it with their copyrights
16:19 < kanzure> aaronw: did they not like it? 
16:19 < kanzure> i mean, i though tthis was the whole point- others can pick it up and build it
16:19 < kanzure> and potentially sell it
16:19 < aaronw> well, the issue was that users who bought from him were calling them for support
16:19 < kanzure> hahah
16:19 < aaronw> they didn't want to prevent the practice
16:19 < aaronw> but there was confusion
16:19 < parolang> heh
16:19 < aaronw> where is where <drumroll> trademarks come in
16:19 < kanzure> that's a funny unforseen incident
16:19 < aaronw> i think they just asked the guy not to use the name makerbot
16:19 < kanzure> yeah, i would think that the makerbot brand would be protected or something
16:19 < kanzure> right
16:20 < parolang> Trademarks would need to be respected in skdb :/
16:21 < kanzure> that's fine, imho
16:21 < kanzure> but i hope we can say "this is the same design as the Makerbot(tm) reprap" (or, really, the reprap on which it is based)
16:21 < kanzure> cupcakecnc
16:21 < aaronw> kanzure, truthful statements like that are generally fine
16:22 < aaronw> i.e. don't infringe trademark
16:22 < aaronw> Whereas "This is a Makerbot" could confuse someone into thinking they built it
16:23 < parolang> aaronw: Is there a clear distinction as to how much can be trademarked?  For instance, a brand name written on the product can be trademarked...but to what extent can you trademark a design?
16:23 < katsmeow-afk> "now joining #################hplusroadmap , based on #hplusroadmap"
16:24 < aaronw> The line is unfortunately not very clear, parolang
16:24 < aaronw> But if a design element is functional, it's less likely to be subject to trademark.
16:25 < kanzure> so, i think that there are two views that hundred-ideas wanted us to put forward
16:25 < parolang> aaronw: What about if the design element is aesthetic?
16:25 < kanzure> (1) how a project maintainer can license his design content for distribution, trademark his brand and not be totally screwed over
16:25 < kanzure> (2) how content consumers, skdb users, and other people who did *not* originate the designs can use the OSI four freedoms, sell and redistribute the kits
16:25 < kanzure> i think that #1 is fairly well settled, but #2 imho needs some convincing
16:26 < aaronw> parolang, then in some cases it might be possible to claim trademark
16:26 < kanzure> aaronw: is there anything stopping reprap.org from, say, patenting the cupcakecnc designs, and then suing makerbot?
16:26 < kanzure> it seems that it could be possible, but of course i get the feeling that they wouldn't ;)
16:27 < aaronw> kanzure, $10k to $20k, for one thing
16:27 < aaronw> and possibly various estoppel issues
16:27 < kanzure> estoppel?
16:28 < aaronw> If you know someone believes you've given him permission to do something, and you let him go on doing it, you might be prevented from stopping it.
16:28 < aaronw> But I'm not a patent lawyer, so I can't dive much deeper on these issues.
16:29 < kanzure> hold on, i'm untangling that sentence
16:29 < kanzure> it's a hairy beast
16:29  * fenn reads the backlog
16:29 < kanzure> aaronw: ah, i see. that's a cool one
16:29 < aaronw> If 1) someone else is infringing your right, and 2) believes in good faith they have a license from you, and 3) you know they believe that, and 4) you don't stop them in some reasonable amount of time, then 5) they might be allowed to continue.
16:30 < fenn> kanzure: reprap can't patent their stuff because it's been published
16:30 < kanzure> and #4 would be stopping them via i.e. patent law whereas at first everything was  under, say, copyright law
16:30 < kanzure> fenn: true, but the patent office is full of dicks
16:30 < fenn> now, makerbot could invent some new reprap-based idea and patent it
16:30 < kanzure> hm
16:31 < fenn> but that's not what you're talking about, so pay no attentio to me
16:31 < kanzure> well, consider the case where makerbot invents and patents some new reprap-based idea and patents that
16:31 < kanzure> couldn't they sue anyone for making further alterations similar to theirs?
16:31 < kanzure> even though other people might only be altering the original reprap designs
16:32 < kanzure> i think this is why the biobrick foundation "community agreement license" thingy was made- "i promise to not patent troll"
16:33 < jrayhawk> Yeah, the GPLv3 has similar arrangements, but due to the fact that they're basically contract terms that nobody signs, it's only partially useful to you.
16:33 < parolang> I think the term "derived work" only applies to copyright law, and therefore doesn't affect hardware.
16:33 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
16:34 < jrayhawk> It'll stop other source-distributing projects from operating as they'd wish, but compiling-into-physical-objects projects can still ignore the licenses.
16:35 < kanzure> i don't want to stop source-distribution projects
16:35 < kanzure> and i don't want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects
16:35 < kanzure> i want to stop compiling-into-physical-objects projects from stopping *other* compile projects
16:36 < jrayhawk> I don't think that's possible without signed contracts.
16:36 < parolang> jrayhawk: I think the question is concerning patents.
16:36 < kanzure> signed contracts can do that, how exactly?
16:36 < jrayhawk> Patent agreements.
16:36 < parolang> Which is why, for example, you couldn't reverse engineer an intel chip and stick it on skdb (I guess).
16:37 < parolang> But could you improve on an intel chip and stick *that* on skdb?
16:37 < kanzure> i think reverse engineering is separate
16:37 < aaronw> kanzure, how do you think project 1 might stop project 2?
16:38 < aaronw> by getting a patent on its modifications of the open source design?
16:38 < kanzure> yes
16:38 < kanzure> also, legal extortion
16:38 < jrayhawk> or even getting a patent on the original design because the patent office is a worthless sack of shit.
16:38 < kanzure> right
16:38 < kanzure> $200k in legal fees is enough to kill a peasant
16:38 < aaronw> jrayhawk, that's an issue, for sure.
16:39 < aaronw> one answer that's been suggested is defensive publication
16:39 < aaronw> that is, publishing the original design in a form that patent examiners can use as prior art
16:39 < kanzure> ooh ooh what about anti-patent-trolling contracts that you sign and get notified in public?
16:40 < aaronw> e.g. http://www.defensivepublications.org/login.jsp
16:40 < parolang> kanzure: So you have to sign the contract before you can download?
16:40 < kanzure> parolang: no
16:41 < kanzure> this would be for original publishers, mainly
16:41 < fenn> "Makerbot has dealt with at least one user that was building makerbot designs and selling them"  what does "dealt with" mean?
16:41 < aaronw> kanzure, you mean, basically, a non-assertion promise.
16:41 < aaronw> correct?
16:41 < aaronw> fenn: that's covered in the backlog.  keep reading.
16:41 < kanzure> do non-assertion promises work?
16:42 < kanzure> heh i think i can wire skdb to automatically generate "defensive publications" via the defensivepublications.org web pages
16:43 < kanzure> since all the details should be provided in the skdb package (more or less)
16:43 < aaronw> kanzure, they have some use.  but if you require contributions to be under FOSS licenses with patent licenses included in them, that could be useful as well.
16:43 < aaronw> kanzure, that would be a fun trick
16:44 < fenn> heh gnome-terminal recognizes *.com as a link but not *.org
16:44 < kanzure> probably because of java namespaces involving "org"
16:45 < fenn> nah java namespaces include all tld's
16:45 < fenn> and they start with the tdl anyway
16:45 < kanzure> well, i have sufficiently proved that i suck at java
16:46 < aaronw> It's ok, Java sucks at you, too.
16:46 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@121-98-81-17.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:47 < kanzure> it seems that the patent issues are too broad because, as it is, anyone could use you anyway because they might have a patent for a related design/device
16:47 -!- genehacker [~noko@pool-173-57-48-104.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:47 < kanzure> so maybe i should just ignore it
16:47 < jrayhawk> That's almost how the software world works.
16:47 < fenn> yeah, worrying about patents is stupid
16:48 < kanzure> *could use one
16:48 < fenn> people only sue when they are certain to make more money from suing than they spend on lawyers
16:48 < jrayhawk> GPLv3 at least stops major players from being dicks.
16:48 -!- ferrouswheel [~joel@121-98-81-17.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #hplusroadmap
16:49 < jrayhawk> No, they also sue as 1) a silencing tactic and 2) a message to others who might try to enter their market
16:50 < fenn> aaronw: do you know anything about how the CC "non-commercial" clause applies in reality?
16:50 < fenn> i was always confused about both what people intended and what it actually means legally
16:50 < aaronw> fenn, I'm not sure I've ever seen one applied in reality.
16:51 < jrayhawk> Both the OSI and the DSFG principles would keep "non-commercial" from being allowed to enter SKDB anyway. (Assuming Bryan actually uses one of those.)
16:51 < aaronw> The meaning of "commercial" is very difficult to ascertain
16:51 < aaronw> CC themselves did a user poll for this purpose.
16:52 < aaronw> it's incompatible with free software principles, and generally a bad idea, IMO
16:52 < fenn> jrayhawk: not necessarily. we'll have metadata on proprietary designs too
16:52 < fenn> you just "won't be allowed" to use them, sorta like wget "isnt allowed" to ignore robots.txt
16:52 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so it seems like a "we won't be a patent troll" notery contract would do wonders to maybe show the plaintiffs acting in contempt of their word (per #1 silencers and #2 territorial bastards)
16:53 < kanzure> this would be sufficient to me- even though other entities could presumably sue over IP bullshit
16:53 < jrayhawk> But to be even slightly practical, you'd need to get that contract with everyone you distribute to.
16:53 < jrayhawk> Which is impractical in and of itself.
16:53 < kanzure> no, just the originators i would think?
16:54 < jrayhawk> Your concern is someone using the original design or a modification of that design to acquire a patent...?
16:54 < kanzure> ooh ooh how about only when the originator of the designs is a corporate entity? i.e. not an individual
16:54 < kanzure> my concern is that someone comes into the scene, releases an open source death star, and then people start using it; the original person then sues the fuck out of them
16:55 < kanzure> aaronw: mentioned estoppel might be able to help fight that
16:55 < jrayhawk> Oh, yes, then your plan would work fine. Obviously you'd need to talk to a lawyer to work out how things would be organized...
16:55 < kanzure> what i want to prevent is *others* (who are involved in SKDB, open source hardware, etc.) from preventing others from manufacturing/making shit
16:56 < kanzure> in so far as the "others" are following the OSI principles
16:56 < kanzure> er.. fooey. this gets complicated
16:56 < aaronw> kanzure, I also said that if you get contributions under licenses (like gplv3 or apache) with explicit patent provisions, the work may be done for you
16:56 < kanzure> yeah but what if they don't have the patents yet?
16:56 < jrayhawk> You might talk to a patent lawyer to see if non-assertion promises could possibly work without a signature.
16:57 < jrayhawk> s/a signature/notarization/
16:57 < fenn> kanzure: gpl3 says "i will not patent the results of work building on this software'
16:57 < kanzure> fenn: hot diggity
16:58 < aaronw> kanzure, it also says "all patent claims owned or controlled by the contributor, whether already acquired or hereafter acquired"
16:58 < jrayhawk> I think it's actually "I will not enforce patents [...]"
16:58 < jrayhawk> Patenting itself is still fine.
16:58 < fenn> oh
16:58 < kanzure> i'd like to see the "i will not enforce patents" in courts
16:59 < fenn> "all patent claims" really?
16:59 < fenn> or just ones relating to the software in question?
16:59 < aaronw> Again, though, I'm not a patent lawyer and i'm not speaking on behalf of SFLC.  If you are interested in applying to SFLC for actual legal advice, you can write to help@softwarefreedom.org, although I don't make the decision about who we accept as clients.
16:59 < jrayhawk> You should just read the license. It's saner than we're making it sound.
16:59 < aaronw> fenn: it's limited to patent claims related to the software.  and i agree with jrayhawk.
16:59 < jrayhawk> Though it's still tied to license acceptence, which has issues.
16:59 < aaronw> there's not substitute for RTFL
17:00  * fenn reads
17:00 < aaronw> jrayhawk, not sure what you mean there, but i probably disagree with you.
17:01 < aaronw> copyright licenses don't have to be "accepted" because if you don't agree to be bound by them, you don't have the right to use the copyrighted work at all.
17:01 < aaronw> so you either use the work under the license, or you're infringing.
17:02 < jrayhawk> expand "use"
17:02 < aaronw> copy, modify, distribute, prepare derivative works of
17:03 < fenn> ok my eyes glazed over after about twenty seconds
17:03 < jrayhawk> The originator of the license is not bound to the license, which is problematic in the Bryan "person distributes something openly; gets evil" use case, and...
17:04 < fenn> the TENTACLES OF EVIL clause
17:04 < fenn> test*
17:04 < jrayhawk> A consumer of the licensed material does not necessicarily need to copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of it in order make the "patent original or modified versions of the design, then be evil" use case.
17:05 < jrayhawk> err, bound by the license
17:06 < fenn> btw jrayhawk, the four freedoms didn't come from OSI; "The Free Software Definition, written by Richard Stallman and published by Free Software Foundation"
17:06 < jrayhawk> oh right i am retarded
17:07 < jrayhawk> Just a big clarifying thing for people playing at home: a license is for granting rights and does not need notarization; giving up rights can only be done under notarization.
17:07 < fenn> i think it's more succinct and yet identical to the 10 debian points (examples? really?)
17:07 < aaronw> Everyone, it's been a pleasure, I have to get going.  I hope you sort out your questions, but mostly I hope you hack on your projects and do not get too weighed down by legal issues.
17:07 < fenn> thanks aaronw 
17:07 < fenn> jrayhawk: so every click through agreement is void?
17:07 -!- aaronw [~aaronw@thurgood-marshall.sflc.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:07 < jrayhawk> Yes :)
17:08 < fenn> ok hold on while i go set stuff on fire and sue people for letting me do it
17:08 < jrayhawk> Only if you already had the right to set stuff on fire.
17:08 < fenn> it's my god-given right
17:08 < jrayhawk> Uh... have fun defending that.
17:09 < genehacker> flamewar?
17:09 < jrayhawk> Nope.
17:09 < fenn> kanzure in the diybio "is this open source?" context, you might want to have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines#debian-legal_tests_for_DFSG_compliance
17:11 < jrayhawk> Well, the click-through agreement is void if you never copy, modify, distribute, or prepare derivative works of the material in question.
17:12 < jrayhawk> Otherwise you have the choice between operating under the terms of the license or being liable for infringement.
17:15 -!- shepazu [~schepers@wsip-98-173-110-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #hplusroadmap
17:16 -!- klafka [~klafka@129.21.71.219] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:17 < jrayhawk> Click-throughs are wishful thinking that courts will grant some workaround to basic copyright law in favor of content creators, which does happen from time to time.
17:17 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundExchange , for instance.
17:17 < fenn> kanzure will you buy me one of these? http://www.skyscan.be/products/1172.htm
17:18 < jrayhawk> If you create a song, it is mandatorily licensed to radio stations for a set fee.
17:18 < fenn> yeah and it's amazing we still have that law
17:18 < jrayhawk> And yet people keep voting for jerks like Biden.
17:19 < fenn> what does biden say?
17:19 < jrayhawk> the RIAA and the MPAA are good for america and they're good for you :)
17:19 < kanzure> fenn: it seems to be "ask for price"
17:19 < fenn> good for breakfast
17:19 < fenn> kanzure: that should fit your unknowable budget perfectly then :)
17:20 < kanzure> uh oh
17:20 < kanzure> it's not nice to test the limits of the budget like this 
17:21 < kanzure> ALSO i still haven't rigged up paypal :(
17:22 < fenn> huh 27mm maximum object size
17:22 < fenn> that's a lot smaller than i expected
17:22 < fenn> gotta chop off the mouse's head first
17:23 < fenn> i mean, uh, perfect for scanning legos, yeah, that's it
17:23 < jrayhawk> Fenn: What do you think is the relationship between the Free Software Definition and GFDL invariant sections?
17:24 -!- KingJacob [~KingJacob@c-98-201-172-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:24 < fenn> GFDL invariant sections are bullshit and should never even have made it into the license
17:24 < fenn> in fact i don't see the need for GFDL at all
17:25 < fenn> if you want to license cover art separately, go ahead
17:25 < kanzure> neither of you answered my original question re: open source projects that have multiple files under different licenses
17:25 < kanzure> is this good, bad, evil, to be encouraged?
17:25 < fenn> considered harmful
17:26 < jrayhawk> This is part of the GPL's ambiguity with regards to what's "mere aggregation"
17:26 < fenn> it basically just increases the workload because you have to make sure n! combinations are compatible
17:26 < jrayhawk> It is the GPL's biggest problem.
17:26 < QuantumG> so long as the licenses are "compatible" its common
17:27 < fenn> jrayhawk: if i put a collection of short stories in the same book, it's "mere aggregation"
17:27 < fenn> how is that ambiguous?
17:27 < fenn> if i use text from a GPL'ed book on the cover, that's a derived work, but could also be considered fair use
17:28 < jrayhawk> Yeah, the distinction gets hairier as time goes on.
17:31 < jrayhawk> As more and more stuff gets aggregated and its relationship becomes closer and more ambiguous as to its derivation.
17:31 < fenn> also they could just use a trademark on the cover, that solves 95% of the arguments for gfdl bullshit
17:32 < jrayhawk> Word. Though sane projects don't give a shit in the first place.
17:32 < QuantumG> its spelled "werd"
17:32 < fenn> i really didn't like the way GNU handled the reaction to GFDL either
17:32 < jrayhawk> True dat.
17:33 < fenn> like a blind enraged bull stampeding all logic and tact out of the way
17:33 < QuantumG> The usage dates back to the civil rights movement. http://bit.ly/cQQwJM
17:33 < jrayhawk> Well, you have to understand that most FSF members are there due to their admiration of Stallman.
17:34 < jrayhawk> And I don't think Stallman has ever behaved responsibly around the concepts of reason or tact.
17:35 < fenn> he seems to do pretty good with logic
17:36 < jrayhawk> He recently said something I didn't instantly hate him for!
17:36 < jrayhawk> He actually had a carefully thought out response to dual licensing.
17:37 < jrayhawk> Specifically "this is probably a net gain for the free software community" rather than "THEY'RE EVIL BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALREADY US"
17:37 < jrayhawk> which is his normal approach to the situation
17:40 < jrayhawk> Stallman normally behaves not only as if his value system is superior to all others, but that *the mere existence of other value systems are not worth consideration in any of his thoughts or actions*
17:40 < jrayhawk> Which means he is (normally) incapable of doing anything other than trolling.
17:41 < QuantumG> sigh
17:41 < QuantumG> dude, all he talks about is why his value system is better than others.
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17:42 < QuantumG> he not only acknowledges them, he demolishes them
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17:42 < QuantumG> the only thing he misses is that some of us don't wanna be smelly hippies who live our lives constrained by a self imposed moral code.
17:43 < QuantumG> Or, as I have said on previous occasions:  I completely agree with Stallman's philosophy, but the difference between he and I is that I can be bought.
17:44 < jrayhawk> He demolishes them within the context of his own value system, which is is a tautological approach that serves only to convince people already subscribed to that value system.
17:44 < QuantumG> uh huh.  I've seen people who were complete skeptics walk out of his speaking engagements converted.
17:45 < QuantumG> he lays down a logical foundation that is attractive to people who like to think of themselves as moral and have never questioned their beliefs in regards to software freedom.
17:47 < jrayhawk> You throw around value-importation words like "moral" and "foundation" far too freely for me to think that you're interested in understanding what I'm saying, so I think I'll give up.
17:49 < QuantumG> I think you misunderstand language.. words mean whatever people find them of value to mean.  Stallman's sermons consist of:  an anecdote about a printer which establishes the "motivating harm" that he experienced to define the term "freedom"..
17:51 < QuantumG> which is pretty funny really.. as if he would just use "software freedom" or "end user freedom to use and modify software" he'd at least not be using the word in an unloaded fashion
17:51 < QuantumG> but it's more powerful to just use "freedom" so he does that.
17:52 < QuantumG> During this analogy, and a little bit after, he diminishes what you or I would call "the developer's freedom".. he would never say that though, cause that would name it, and by naming it you give it power.
17:53 < QuantumG> and what's more, he wants you thinking that there's only one kind of freedom that matters.. the end user's freedom.
17:54 < QuantumG> The anecdote now becomes about establishing the rightful way for end users to think about programmers:  as self-less monks that just want end users to be free.
17:55 < QuantumG> Stallman talks about how hard he worked to make GNU (or, if the anecdote is really old, that LISP machine) and how he meeked out a living selling tapes to people.
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17:56 < QuantumG> sometimes he'll even talk about how he always figured he could go wait tables instead of being a programmer.. 
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18:02 < QuantumG> the war mentality is invoked around this point.  Sacrifice for freedom.. it's all very baby boomer.
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18:06 < hundred-ideas> are the logs at designfiles.org/~kanzure/irclog.txt?
18:10 < fenn> designfiles.org/irclogs.txt
18:10 < fenn> but that's last updated march 13
18:11 < fenn> guess the bot went away
18:11 < jrayhawk> That "werd" thing is the most interesting thing I've read today.
18:12 < fenn> yep
18:12 < hundred-ideas> oh thanks
18:12 < QuantumG> yeah, someone told me I misspelt "werd" once so I googled it :)
18:13 < hundred-ideas> oh, so what did I miss?  As I went to my meeting I was thinking that perhaps what I would do is publish all my design files and just link to a wiki page for the licensing that everyone interested can edit and iterate on
18:13 < fenn> '"Word" is the shortened form of the phrase: "my word is my bond" which was originated by inmates in U.S. prisons.'
18:13 < fenn> WERD is probably a backronym
18:13 < jrayhawk> "Searches related to werd: microsoft werd"
18:15 < fenn> or a blackronym :)
18:15 < QuantumG> heh
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18:17 < jrayhawk> Language considered as implying the faith or authority of the person who utters it; statement; affirmation; declaration; promise. "Obey thy parents; keep thy word justly." --Shak. "I know you brave, and take you at your word." --Dryden.
18:17 < hundred-ideas> ok, so I'll release stuff with an open source hardware WORD.  Or is it OSH WERD?
18:18 < jrayhawk> I'll start referring to CPU architecture by werd-length.
18:18 < QuantumG> hehe
18:19 < QuantumG> after every instruction the cpu says "werd" to express its agreement at the righteousness of the execution.
18:20 < jrayhawk> hee
18:22 < jrayhawk> "word" means disagreement in the context of "had a word", and agreement in the context of "kept your word"
18:22 < jrayhawk> word is a confusing word :(
18:22 < QuantumG> werd
18:25 < kanzure> did anyone reply to hundred-ideas
18:26 < jrayhawk> no
18:27 < hundred-ideas> :(