13:44 Only recently has odamex really become a serious contender 13:44 then you have eternity:cs which is ladna 13:44 zomg another one :D 13:44 As for obsidian, I apologize that stuff like a server browser isn't done yet 13:45 it is not easy work 13:45 No problem 13:45 But with the recent creation of eternityCS and the recent odamex update I am not really sure how one port offers superior things to the other 13:45 May1972: http://www.totaltrash.org/eternity/ 13:45 it seems like you were able to play either way, so it doesnt matter quite yet :P 13:45 All three are pretty much OS based from what I heard 13:46 hey hey eecs is pre-alpha 13:46 not really for public consumption! 13:46 But eternity is towards competition and odamex too I think 13:46 altho the excitement is encouraging 13:46 nocrao: Yeah, it shows :P 13:46 rofl tm 13:46 however 13:46 May1972: They're three different flavors. None of them are based on recent versions of ZDoom and are thus mostly vanilla-perfect. 13:46 the unlagged in it 13:46 hnnng 13:46 amazing 13:46 Yeah three Psuedo-vanilla ports 13:47 No 13:47 yeah, also you should be a little more careful with how you say things 13:47 beacuse that comment "it shows" could be percieved as something negative 13:47 With some things added for competition ? 13:47 esp. when you're hard at work on something yourself 13:47 Odamex is most like the existing ports, in that it's another zdoom+csdoom derivitive 13:48 nocrao: I didn't mean it as 100% positive either. To me, it's a promising project, but I don't really want to play it yet 13:48 well 13:48 Yeah alexmax 13:48 aiming for zdoom 1.23b33 compatibility while being demo-playback perfect. 13:48 i guess there's this "lockstep" enabled by default 13:48 we dont really want people playing it yet so that works out 13:48 it's not lockstep, it's courtesy 13:48 Then you have obsidian, which is based on chocolate doom 13:48 and is vanilla by definition 13:48 that always confused me 13:49 how is chocolate doom vanilla 13:49 someone really dropped the ball on that 13:49 Oda probably caters to eliminate the disavantages of ST and ZD - Feels more vanilla and has consistent SSG which current non beta ST versions lack, and does not have the stupid blanks in ZD and shot delay 13:49 Plus probably less harsh administration 13:49 not a "probably" 13:49 :D 13:49 Then you have eternity:cs which is it's own thing. Eternity offers vanilla perfection while offering much of the flexibility of ZDoom...just not with ZDoom features it has its own. 13:50 It's a lot more decentralized with odamex 13:50 the master server is public 13:50 no banlist 13:50 there's not even code that would allow though 13:50 server admins host what they want 13:50 how they want 13:50 and play with who they want :P 13:50 Yeah and more cooperation with leagues if by chance ZDDL/IDL will move to it, unlike in ZD where IDL is unsupported by administration 13:50 EE:CS will probably never feel like zdoom ports though when it comes to jumping 13:50 and rocket physics 13:51 let's not say never! :) 13:51 but yeah it's wonky atm 13:51 Oda ? 13:51 i thought eternity has its own rocket physics 13:51 and jumping physics 13:51 oda IS zdoom 13:51 so it can feel exactly like zd physics wise 13:51 Propaganda has quit IRC [Quit: faggot with right] 13:51 Oda is forked from zdoom before randy started snorting coke 13:51 rofl 13:52 and started breaking backwards compatibility 13:52 Odamex is like, the top zdoom 1.x derivative 13:52 heit is a character 13:52 zdoom + vanilla compatibility 13:52 Yeah Alexmax but will the different things between Odamex,EternityCS and obsidian create different playerbases or something? because I don't think they are really totally different form eachother to create different playerbases etc 13:52 Some zdoom 1.23b33 features are being ported over but they coexist with existing vanilla-compatible stuff 13:52 AlexMax: I thought it was strictly 1.22. 13:53 May1972: I really doubt it. Some people might have their preferred port but I doubt you're going to see zdaemon vs skulltag type source port warriors 13:53 Yeah 13:53 what will hopefully happen may is that all of these open ports (i hope to include ST soon) will be slave to the greater competitive community 13:53 the people working on the open source ports all know each other and are generally friendly 13:53 and all of them are vanilla perfect 13:53 so there's no reason not to have all three installed 13:53 except macn who hates me 13:53 I am already expecting nobody to play obsidian 13:53 :) 13:53 But are people going to be spread around the three ports? 13:54 Because it's not what we really need in a not so big community 13:54 there are a lot of ports right now people just don't play 13:54 people will go where the competition is 13:54 nocrao: lmao I really highly doubt manc hates you. Besides, so what if he did, what does it even matter. 13:54 And, once obsidian gets stablized, if there still is not enough interest in it to make me continue, I will cease working on it 13:54 i was joking but i tend to agree with the latter statement 13:55 nocrao: If Kilgore wasn't a lunatic I'd still probably be playing it 13:55 The totally 1995 feeling of obsidian albeit making gameplay a little different is a little cool 13:55 Resolution and vanilla setup menu and chat etc 13:55 I don't really want serious business competition playing against the same 30 people. 13:55 Nobody has called me out yet on obsidian not having momentum when you get damaged 13:55 I like to just play with whatever random players happen to be on a server. 13:56 and to feel like I can quit playing without me killing the server. 13:56 Also TM you should see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM80NWv2zik when me and Proton tested this on his serv 13:56 idk alex i liked playing public zd for a long time 13:56 im watching that right now 13:56 There were times where me and him too saw blood puffs on their screens 13:56 but did not recieve damage 13:56 but the competitive environment is addictive 13:56 May1972: that is known about 13:56 nocrao: I haven't played anything like public zd in years 13:56 I c 13:56 and tbh it's nice to know where you stand up against the best players 13:56 Probably the closest I've come was playing duel32 in skulltag 13:56 there's not a whole ton I can do about it either really 13:56 rather than just raping robertk over and over again 13:57 lol 13:57 which was neat 13:57 well the public players pretty much became the best competition 13:57 you're a weird case of someone that works on doom but doesn't play it really 13:57 I think that's pretty common actually 13:58 i get the sense that a lot of people who take up coding doom quit playing it much 13:58 I don't want to actually feel like anyone on a team depends on me heh 13:58 nocrao: I am proof against that 13:58 dr_sean yeah it is among people who code it 13:58 So yeah AlexMax , regarding the competition thing I think odamex will have the highest chance since it has Ralphis and a few IDL players playing/supporting it 13:58 I even talked with JKist and he says he might move ZDDL to oda but not sure 13:58 but guys who run communitues like altdeath are usually more active players 13:58 May1972: Also, if you were playing on 11.07c, states (such as pain) are sent out by your client to the other players 13:58 packet loss can affect this 13:59 May1972: I think that if eecs ever actually gets to 1.0 it might be a strong contender. 13:59 Yeah 13:59 so sometimes pain happens, but the state change doesnt get sent 13:59 Hmm 13:59 but that's a big _IF_ 13:59 because we all know ladna 13:59 Yeah he is an IDL player too 13:59 this is fixed for 11.09a or whatever the next release is 13:59 i would say that i probably know him best 13:59 and i do'nt even see the if 13:59 now it's the competition on getting competition to your port 13:59 :> 13:59 nocrao: I'll believe it when i see people playing it. 13:59 he's made a ridiculous amount of progress in 8 months 13:59 by the way i've started submitting FR's 13:59 and he's still full into it 14:00 wooo 14:00 my first one is a lava switch option 14:00 the more the merrier 14:00 he has made an insane amount of progress 14:00 it's pretty neat 14:00 basically, if eecs detects you're playing d2m1 14:00 it replaces the map with jkists's lava switch map 14:00 that would suck 14:00 that is less helpful than i'd hoped for 14:00 but i'll take it 14:00 nocrao: i'm joking 14:01 i dig config hud tho 14:01 it's a custom hud FR 14:01 tbh if kist were here 14:01 he'd probably add that right now 14:01 also nocrao 14:01 i have bad memories of fucking with zdstack 14:02 the docs weren't kept up to date at all 14:02 rofl yeah that was a mess 14:02 like 14:02 odamex may not have the nicest internals 14:02 but it has the support around it 14:02 then again when u make a piece of software for a game that bans you, trolls you and slanders you... 14:02 manc running the site, Ralphis keeping up with docs and waving the flag and arranging games 14:02 ceasing the work on that software doesn't seem so ludacris 14:02 well, to be fair, it sounds like ZDStack wasnt really made for other people 14:03 multiple developers working on it 14:03 Well the competition between the three ports imo is a little deterring imo because it can divide the concentration having both ports without a big amount of competition concentrated into it 14:03 that is one of the things i've been talking about a lot 14:03 ee has that as well 14:03 What about ReMooD!? 14:03 also, Ralphis knows how to court players 14:03 hold on 14:04 ralph knows how to court players into doing things that are beneficial for them 14:04 themselves? 14:04 but over 5 years he's done a very mediocre job courting players to oda 14:04 i do'nt attribute the blame to him 14:04 nocrao: I say he did the best he could given the state of it in the past 14:04 but i'd say he's at par in the courting players catergory 14:05 additionally he had a great deal of help starting idl 14:05 and keeping it running 14:05 and growing 14:05 Of course 14:05 and bones is right eecs has some framework as well 14:05 certainly not the extent of odamex 14:05 May1972: to be honest, that isnt that big of a worry 14:05 I just...you know I just don't want to turn this into odamex vs eecs 14:05 i really do'nt see it that way either 14:05 i mean, there are very real reasons people don't fuck with skulltag 14:05 and zdaemon 14:05 EternityCS might be a nice contender to Oda but considering ZDDL and maybe even IDL might move into odamex in the future I think the competitive concentration will be in Oda instead 14:05 I see two open source ports as a very positive thing imo 14:06 i mean there's three ports now but one of those ports gets like, 75% of the community 14:06 i've helped people test oda, i like ralph and dr_sean and hope they are successful 14:06 I think people will play what they like 14:06 May1972: i can tell you there is very little chance of zddl being on oda 14:06 Any help you can throw our way is appreciated nocrao 14:06 :) 14:06 nocrao I discussed with Jefferson 14:06 tt hosted nitro iirc 14:06 and he was actually considering it 14:07 and would continue to do that as far as i'm concerned 14:07 that would be al ittle strange 14:07 woudl it even be called zddl anymore? 14:07 the name change was also discussed 14:07 and ifi t's not called zddl, then it isn't zddl 14:07 yeah ladna helped host nitro, but for some reason his servers kept crashing 14:07 unless the name change happens independently 14:07 but for the purposes of talking about it let's call it zddl 14:07 Yeah 14:07 HumanBones yeah idk what that was about 14:07 but i was speaking more toward the willingness 14:07 not this time! 14:08 the thought counts though 14:08 so nocrao there is some chance of it happening 14:08 no big deal anyway 14:08 it was very helpful 14:08 May1972: no 14:08 there isn't 14:08 We were discussing about it and he actually pointed out that he doesn't really see a good future for ZDDL in ZDaemon 14:08 i mean i guess i do'nt know how long ago u talked to him 14:08 And he wants to find another port 14:08 1 month ago ? 14:09 but there was kind of a weird meeting between kist and the oda team 14:09 and it didn't go well at all 14:09 not that kist is the most social adept guy :) 14:09 Hmm what exactly happened ? 14:09 you'd have to talk to the parties present 14:10 I mean, Ladna was an odamex dev for the longest time 14:10 Ok that doesn't matter but what happened in the aftermath, they became rivals or something ? 14:10 May1972: no they just didn't see eye to eye on some things i guess 14:10 i really wasn't there 14:10 so i do'nt know for sure 14:10 AlexMax: yeah he was 14:10 i'm not sure how much he did though 14:11 that was when he was an active player mostly 14:11 Well 14:11 Also ladna is the kind of person who would say "fuck refactoring, let me do it from scratch" 14:11 Things such as ? 14:11 May1972: I DONT KNOW 14:11 14:10 so i do'nt know for sure 14:11 Things regarding the establishment of the duel league in oda ? 14:12 probably things like PWO 14:12 jkist wants his own special flavor of duel 14:12 :P 14:12 hmm 14:12 and tbh he should be able to have it 14:12 well it's been successful, let him do it 14:12 *shouldn't 14:13 really having all these vanilla/os/ns/flag crap settings server side makes so much sense 14:13 don't legislate a playing style through coding, let players decide what is most fun 14:13 i really don't see the logic in him wanting clientside PWO override 14:13 yes 14:13 that is....like a client being able to override soulsphere respawn times 14:14 it's really not 14:14 Hey HumanBones, what do you think about the IDL moving into the Odamex port, in the near future once it becomes more optimised for serious competition ? 14:14 RustK1ng has joined #altdeath 14:14 Mode change [+v RustK1ng] on #altdeath by Q 14:14 nocrao: No I mean PWO on servers where doom PWO is enforced 14:14 and that kind of conflation is tantamount to switcher calling binds cheating 14:15 kist is saying you shouldn't get to make weapon switching serverside at all 14:15 hmm that is a big question that I can't really answer right now 14:15 Alright 14:15 I couldnt disagree more with him on that 14:15 why not allow the server owners to make that decision 14:15 I mean 14:15 and i'm not even sure i agree with him 14:15 tm512: ofc you're coding a vanilla port 14:15 AlexMax: beacuse the server isn't playing the game 14:15 I think it's something we will have to look at when the time comes 14:15 but again 14:15 i'm not even sure i agree with him 14:16 i just do'nt write him off 14:16 because he's one of the most knowledgable and talented duelers doom has 14:16 i mean what he's essentially lobbying for is for it to be impossible for people who prefer vanilla play to play a vanilla game 14:16 nocrao: if the server admin wants to enforce vanilla rules, that is not the client's choice 14:16 So things such as available costumizations available for things like PWO and weapon switching are what deters JKist from wanting to establish the Duel league in oda ? 14:16 tm512: that is actually the arguement 14:16 you're espousing a belief of yours 14:16 which is fine 14:16 AlexMax: i agree and that was my point 14:17 May1972: it isn't just my decision. I could move to the league to X port, but if nobody wants to play it there is really no point in moving it there 14:17 True 14:17 nocrao: I mean, it could be voted on or something 14:17 But there is a reason 14:17 i like that idea AlexMax 14:17 callvote forcepwo true 14:17 or callvote itemrespawn 14:17 or w/e 14:17 nocrao: Well, in the very end, it's the client's choice of what server he plays on 14:17 that way the players get to decide 14:17 I think part of is because people are accostumized to ZD, but then again odamex does need a little work regarding some missing things which are needed for competitive play 14:17 the current players 14:17 instead of switcher running servers for 50% of zdaemon 14:18 or whatever you wanna use as a stupidity example 14:18 yes, a lot of people are used to zdaemon 14:18 nocrao: well tbqh i like being able to force things down players throats 14:18 Yeah but what is oda missing besides from the competitive stuff 14:18 It has a SSG close to ZD 14:18 i do too alex 14:18 Vanilla like 14:18 but when i put on my "greater good for doom" hat 14:18 for example, i force vanilla weapon switch on 14:18 Which btw is not weaker than ZD definitely not from what I tested 14:18 i think about the alternatives 14:18 I think the competitive community can still grow larger, but it's not going to grow larger on private servers using outdated versions of a port :P 14:19 AlexMax: and people get used to it 14:19 Yes 14:19 In oda there will be support between the administration and the league 14:19 <@AlexMax> I mean, Ladna was an odamex dev for the longest time 14:19 eh 14:19 not really 14:19 he never had access to trunk just branches, he'd coem and go 14:19 Plus odamex gets rid of the ZDaemon blank shots problem, in addition to better unlagged code 14:19 nocrao: to counterpoint, if arqon didn't take big stands with decisions on CPMA, the gameplay would have been ruined 14:19 contribute some stuff here and there but I wouldn't call him a core member so much 14:19 Which do affect compeititon afaik 14:20 for example 14:20 in street fighter 3 online edition 14:20 actually my one on one with jkist went very well 14:21 you can't pick gil in a ranked match 14:21 because he's overpowered 14:21 unfortunately ladna copypasta'd convos from our dev channel to give to jkist 14:21 and you know when you're in a more private convo, things get hashed out 14:21 should picking gill be left to players? 14:21 i don't think so 14:22 i think PWO forcing should be a server option with an option to vote on it with an option for the server admin to disable that vote 14:22 then again, there are other options 14:22 That could be interesting 14:22 there could be a 'gameplay' vote 14:22 which basically sets a bunch of settings at once 14:22 executes a specific config file i guess 14:22 [lsn] would be the oldschool servers then 14:22 extremely strict 14:23 and a server admin could prevent you from voting for that one setting specifically 14:23 but allow you to callvote gameplay zd108 14:23 or callvote gameplay skulltag 14:23 or callvote gameplay vanilla 14:23 hmm wtf ? 14:23 ok back 14:23 let me read up 14:24 Maybe just 1 server os settings and 1 ns 14:24 odamex skulltag emulation rofl 14:24 9_9 14:24 manc: ladna wasn't a developer? 14:24 Would be better Idea 14:24 i mean he submitted stuff he fixed/wrote 14:24 sure 14:24 evolu has quit IRC [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:24 whether or not it was good or used 14:24 and he had write access to the branches 14:24 To make a compliation wad for odamex like in ZDDL wad and two servers one with OS and other with the more NS setting 14:24 oh we used it 14:24 but yeah i do'nt think he was ever integral 14:24 but his presense was sporadic 14:24 May1972: no need for a compilation 14:24 Hmm ? 14:24 just use a maplist 14:24 he fixed some good bugs 14:25 odamex has on-the-fly wad reloading 14:25 ah 14:25 Yes 14:25 and mapscript 14:25 he made some bugs too :P 14:25 That is true tm512 so yeah one server with OS settings and another with more NS settings 14:25 AlexMax: i agree there are lines where developers should make strides to influence games 14:25 hrm, well 14:26 manc: would you be for or against having a new parameter to the addmap command, for mapscripts 14:26 and it's really just a subjective line i guess 14:26 would allow you to switch settings for certain maps 14:26 but i think the more open a port is for allowing settings to be customized by users, the better 14:27 nocrao: It's open source. If you don't give the admins the ability to force PWO there will be people who do. 14:27 ;) 14:27 also that :) 14:27 default to nothing of course, so it wouldnt affect current configs 14:27 evolu has joined #altdeath 14:27 Mode change [+v evolu] on #altdeath by Q 14:27 through not so nice means 14:27 "check to see if the weapon is expected, if not, kick for cheating" 14:27 really it takes a lot of the "hostaging" away from both developers and server admins 14:27 players can make doom whatever game they love to play 14:28 with whatever setting they choose 14:28 hell it would be cool if we could publish differet setting under macros 14:28 and load em up 14:28 nocrao: one thing i don't get though 14:28 is why you say its hostaging 14:28 when anyone can run a server 14:28 i mean 14:28 so when tm joins he can callvote vanilla_settings 14:28 if you hated switcher's settings 14:28 the way to change that is to run a server with different ones 14:29 yeah but not anyone can run a dedicated box or a vps, and certainly not on the scale that the dui servers were 14:29 so? 14:29 i've run as few as 3-4 servers 14:29 and people know to look for [NJ] FUNCRUSHER+ :) 14:29 :D 14:29 nocrao: rofl 14:29 the SEAL OF QUALITY 14:29 yeah that's certainly me 14:29 :P 14:30 and tm512 there is nothing wrong with that 14:30 but what if you really loved playing odamex 14:30 I am being sarcastic 14:30 also for the longest time i hated skullspree 14:30 so i refused to run it 14:30 and they had zero servers with your brand of settings 14:30 i added it only in exchange for making the servers public w/ join password 14:30