arc jdub, and more manpower
arc wasabi, I'll try to do it during guadec maybe
arc wasabi, this week I have to end an 8086 asm calculator ¬¬
arc for the college asignments
* pedro_ has quit (Leaving)
* EvaSDK has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
arc well
arc gotta go bed
jdub arc: yeah, this is very cool -- my questions are all about a pathway to releasing 'gedit-2.22.0.exe' and friends with every release 8)
arc jdub, that's my goal
arc ;)
orph why would someone want to use gedit on Windows?
wasabi gtksourceview is actually nice.
arc orph, I'm on windows right now, doing an 8086 asm thing, I hate notpad
jdub it's a good text editor, and we want to build mindshare
arc orph, you shouldn't think "why would somone want it" instead, "why wouldn't someone want it"
arc people would love a regular evolution build for windows
wasabi I'd like epiphany for windows.
* bpepple|lt has quit (Ex-Chat)
* ickle has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
arc wasabi, that's true
jdub it'd be nice to have users for our apps 8)
arc orph, gnome is not only a desktop, but a really cool development platform that has no reasons to not work properly on windows
arc orph, the problem is that it's a nightmare to distribute those apps
orph uhh, no, actually, i should be thinking the former.  because if the reason is not there for people to use it on Win32, it's waste of time/resources, both of the specific hackers doing the port, and of everyone for having to think about it at all.
orph time/resources that could, in theory, be spent on something much higher impact.
arc orph, you are assuming that hackers doing the port would do another thing instead
* jeff has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
orph but i'm willing to admit there are good reasons for such a port.  i'm just wondering what they are?
arc orph, actually, my cureent contribution to gnome is that one, and I'm not interested in anything else at the moment
arc orph, so it's that or nothing
arc orph, do you want me to stop?
arc :)
orph kinda, sure
jdub orph: it's a good text editor and we want mindshare
orph there are a lot of good text editors
arc ...
arc orph, then we shouldn't develop gedit at all?
jdub that doesn't mean gedit has no place
jdub getting our platform (and demonstration apps) on windows will assist with hacker audience
jdub there are plenty of reasons
wasabi I'm not particularily interested in gedit as much as I am in gtksourceview.
jdub not all of which involve gedit specifically
wasabi I do my primary windows development using Gtk.
jdub so that's a dumb argument :)
wasabi Because... well... it's better.
orph no, it doesn't.  just that that place is miniscule on windows, where at least 50 freeware editors exist.  some of which have all the features of gedit.
wasabi My current Gtk app doesn't even run on Linux. =)
arc orph, there is people out there that loves gnome and gnome apps but have to use windows
iain text editors are a very personal thing...I can't see anyone who has an editor of choice on windows use gedit
wasabi this argument is pointless. if somebody manages to get gedit compilred and replaced, whatever.
jdub orph: dude, don't be so whiny. gedit doesn't exist on windows.
orph arc: those people live tortured lives, and i'll prey for them.
iain orph: pray :)
orph that too!
arc orph, thank you, you are very kind with me
arc :)
arc orph, then don't care about them, but don't try to stop others to care about them please
vgeddes orph: they don't know they are being tortured. that's the real issue.
vgeddes once they see our apps, then the situation improves
orph vgeddes: uhh, doesn't that mean that they aren't tortured then?
iain arc: but giving gedit to the gnome people stuck on windows doesn't deal with jdub's mindshare issue
jdub iain: having our platform and apps available does
arc iain, it's not about gedit at all :)
* orph tries but fails to make a crack about seeing our apps makes orph switch to gmail :-)
jdub iain: if gedit (to continue the asinine example) exists on windows at all, some people will see it
iain jdub: I'd still like to see the numbers before I believe that
iain jdub: (and gedit is the worst possible example)
jdub iain: there are no numbers. gedit does not exist on windows.
jdub iain: if you want numbers, look at firefox.
jdub 95% or more of its user base are on windows.
* ickle (~ickle@dsl82-163-150-2.as15444.net) has joined #gnome-hackers
arc iain, well it's a probability issue, if 90% of the desktop share is on windows, a 0.5% of windows marketshare is a huge number
iain jdub: 95% of netscapes userbase was too
jdub i want windows developers exposed to GTK+ and GNOME Mobile
arc if we want to attract people, we have to go where they are
iain jdub: thats not a bad thing, I just don't think porting gnome apps is the solution to it
iain jdub: if anything, mono/gtk# are
jdub iain: gotta have examples, gotta have demonstration, gotta have our own experience
wasabi I don't really think porting apps like Gedit is really that big of a deal though.
arc iain, gaim port to windows is extremely popular
wasabi I mean, it's probably nothing, once Gtk works right.
* jeff (~jstedfast@c-24-60-155-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #gnome-hackers
wasabi So, whatever. Demo concept.
arc yup
orph jdub: so you are gedit-win32 will entice new contributors to 1) learn a shitty, mostly-deprecated platform 2) hack it in a shitty language -- plain-C 3) deal with the inevitable linux/windows unsupported aspect of said platform 4) learn how to do open source so they can get patches upstream
arc iain, sorry, pidgin
* iain wonders what is turning on his security light but is too scared to check
arc orph, pygtk, rubygtk, gtkmm
arc orph, please :)
* Zdra has quit (Ex-Chat)
orph jdub: i guess if you were asking me to do all that stuff, i'd ask you "what's in it for me?"
arc orph, gedit plugins are in python
wasabi </argument>
jdub orph: yeah! negative to the max! way to go man.
orph arc: since when do win32 programmers know python?
jdub 1) there are big chunks of the upper gnome platform that are deprecated that need not be ported at all. don't be a whiner.
arc actually, the reason because I want to do a sane pygtk32 installer, was because all of my student mates at the college wanted to learn pygtk because they saw how rocking easy it was
iain "don't be a whiner, be a winner!"
jdub 2) some will actively want to, some won't. why is that a selling point?
orph jdub: ya sorry.  i'm preparing my GUADEC keynote, and it's a question i'd really like an answer to
arc but they have no time/interest/possibilty to install linux
arc that's it
* iain kicks vi
federico orph: ooh, you are keynoting?
federico orph: talk about how we need cool vertical apps
jdub 3) it's early days. things get fixed. why whinge?
metalgod i think the new anjuta will get more persons involved
federico I need a design-your-home CAD
jdub 4) rock and roll.
arc woohoo
jdub orph: i hope your keynote is not so depressing as your attitude to this.
arc federico, you just need it to profile it with mortadelo :P
metalgod it's really nice to use and a good ide makes lots of things easier
wasabi I've been using Eclipse and have been pretty satisfied with it
* orph takes out several slides and replaces them with "rock & roll"
metalgod wasabi, with cdt ?
wasabi Yeah
jdub apparently CDT has improved a whole bunch
metalgod have you tried anjuta2 ?
wasabi Nope.
wasabi It packaged?
federico jdub: orph is a wise man; he won't disappoint
metalgod yep
wasabi I remember v1.
campd last time I tried eclipse, there was a decent mobile-java package
wasabi I did not like it.
wasabi Anjuta have a GUI debugger now?
campd someone should really build something like that for mobile-gnome stuff
hub nemiver is standalone :-)
metalgod the problem with eclipse is that is too damn heavy and java crap all along
* bpepple|lt (~bpepple_l@rrcs-70-63-1-189.central.biz.rr.com) has joined #gnome-hackers
jdub federico: well, here's hoping it will be about potential and vision, not "why bother?"
arc am I the only one using netbeans? :-(
* arc feels alone
jdub arc: globally? yes. ;-)
* chpe has quit (Weg)
arc jdub, heh
orph jdub: it's going to be 30 minutes of my standard asinine groundless conjecture, followed by 10 minutes of sphincter-blowing demo =)
wasabi metalgod, I haven'ted noticed heavy software in the last 3 years.
wasabi metalgod, too much ram these days for it to make a dent in any of my machines.
campd bah, groundless
jdub orph: so i guess the challenge is to not make people walk out before the demo. maybe a new strategy should be applied.
orph okay, okay, "groundless" was a placation.  sorry.
orph jdub: rock & roll? :-)
wasabi rock & troll
orph hah
orph oh man. that's a good title.
federico jdub: well
federico jdub: platforms these days are all "why bother"
* carlos has quit (Ex-Chat)
federico that's why we need to focus on apps
federico apps are what get people excited
wasabi I sort of disagree with ya there federico 
wasabi That's what you see from the Mac side, anyways. The Windows side is still all about the platform.
jdub apps have always been the what users get excited about
jdub but that doesn't make platforms "why bother?"
campd there's a leverage thing
* bpepple|lt has quit (Ex-Chat)
wasabi It takes but a dip in the hype over WPF/WCF to notice it
wasabi And silverlight, etc.
campd a ten percent improvement to an app improves ten percent
jdub if anything, the action in platforms over the last few years shows that up stratight away
campd if a ten percent improvement to the platform can get ten apps to improve ten percent
campd or motivate a single new app
federico the thing is
federico we have limited manpower
federico and if we keep masturbating on the platform, we'll never get cool apps written
campd but that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy..
jdub we've been ignoring the platform for years
jdub it has been utterly uncool
jdub unfortunately, the focus has been on the desktop, not the apps
arc federico, you are assuming that people working on the platform enjoy writing apps
federico jdub: what have we been working on, then?
hub airlied start a RH. Wow.
campd the problem is the Masturbating
federico desktop = platform
jdub federico: ^
campd and not Improving and Extending
campd dicking around on that last deprecated configuration API
jdub i think that's a definition that suits your argument more than reality, but okay
wasabi Of course I have an opinion too! We need ISVs.
wasabi (vertical apps)
wasabi The platform follows that.
arc wasabi, and ISV needs improvements on the platform
arc :)
wasabi I don't think so at all.
orph federico: i guess my thinking is that good platforms already exist, we just aren't using them.  others are.  .NET, OSX's stuff, the Web stack, Flash.
wasabi MS only makes platforms so ISVs can write software that runs on it.
wasabi They don't do it for the joy of it.
wasabi There is a demand.
orph federico: the reason our platform is lacking is because there is no money in improving it.
jdub orph: so we should ditch the floss platform we have?
orph jdub: nope.
jdub orph: that has changed in the last few years.
orph it has? where's my 3D driver?
jdub we now have more people renumerated to work on the gnome platform stack than at any other time, and more than any other area within gnome.
federico orph: what would your business model be?
jdub jesus.
campd so the interesting question to ask is
campd if some random dude has a good idea
wasabi I think we need a marketing department. *shrug*
campd is he going to use gnome to do it?
campd and if not, why not
orph federico: i'm not starting a business, but if i was it would be "follow the money"
arc campd, you have nailed the issue
campd I'd argue that the chances are really low that he would use gnome
orph ya, well said
campd and so there are two ways we can fix that
jdub campd: there is one area that the chances are greater now and have greater immediate potential -- mobile
campd we can find a way to make sure that cool kid chooses gnome
* danilo (~danilo@adsl-236-193.eunet.yu) has joined #gnome-hackers
campd or we can find out what he WOULD choose, and try to incorporate our philosophy/etc with it
campd jdub: that is true
wasabi In my circle those people choose visual studio.
wasabi My circle seems to be pretty large.
federico mobile is only cool in the first world, though
arc wasabi, In my circle people don't choose, just ask someone they think that is wise enough to choose for them
arc :P
campd what I see, people choose the web
campd obviously there's a bit of selection bias there
jdub federico: ?!?!?!?!?!
wasabi Yeah, there is. I deal mostly with internal company applications.
* bpepple|lt (~bpepple_l@rrcs-70-63-1-189.central.biz.rr.com) has joined #gnome-hackers
jdub federico: that is WRONG WRONG WRONG
wasabi Small business or large business. Database driven.
wasabi The apps never leave the company.
arc campd, so gnome 3.0 should be the (web+native+mobile)/3 platform?
arc campd, :)
Burgundavia federico: mobile is pretty much the only way most people are connected in the third world
campd shrug
campd I didn't say I had the answer
campd :)
* federico has quit (Remote closed the connection)
arc campd, doh
orph arc: i'd say that instead, gnome 3.0 should be something people actually really care about :-)
jdub federico: we're not at a point where gnome mobile can be immediately relevant to developing nations (required hardware), but that is where mobile has the greatest market potential
* federico (~federico@189.129.69.200) has joined #gnome-hackers
orph whatever that something is.
jdub federico: we're not at a point where gnome mobile can be immediately relevant to developing nations (required hardware), but that is where mobile has the greatest market potential
jdub and if you missed it
jdub 10:04 < jdub> federico: ?!?!?!?!?!
jdub 10:05 < jdub> federico: that is WRONG WRONG WRONG
arc federico, lots of underdeveloped countries in africa are using the phone as their first communication technology
jdub just look at south africa
wasabi sigh
vgeddes everyone here in South Africa has a cellphone, it's just bad to not have a cellphone
arc federico, actually, it's the only affordable way to have any telecomunications
vgeddes gardeners, labourers, domestic workers, they all have cell phones
jdub federico: 10 million pcs, 40 million mobile phones, 50 million population -- and guess which is rising?
arc federico, on the other hand, olpc is targeted to the third world, and it's a mobile platform too
wasabi follow the money folks. Each of you who disagree go do a big report about how much revenue moves through the sector you have talked about: africa mobile phones, web applications (wait what does that even have to do with gnome), and large corporate interests.
wasabi Then we'll know. =)
federico jdub: the problem I see with mobile is that you need the mobile gadget *and* a PC to write shit for the gadget.  Double the cost.
orph wasabi: come to GUADEC and find out the answers to all your questions and more!
jdub federico: different problem
wasabi See, my company won't send me to guadec. =)
wasabi Because... well... I can't exactly justify why they should!
arc wasabi, beers?
* iain has quit (leaving)
arc wasabi, improve the windows installer?
arc :)
wasabi But if I asked to go to some MS conference, they'd do it in a second.
wasabi Woe as me.
arc wasabi, not having to listen to your complains for one month?
arc wasabi, tell them that MS is going to be there...
arc oh god! 1:10am!
* arc goes bed! really
* arc has quit (Saliendo)
federico anyway, apps
federico we could make gnome the best environment to deal with collaborative data
federico like
* jdahlin is now known as jdahlin-office
* terral has quit (Leaving.)
federico not having to use a shit-ass browser to edit wikipedia
federico or to browse flickr photos
campd make the browser less shit-ass!
campd *cough*
wasabi me->home
* wasabi (~wasabi@207.55.182.70) has left #gnome-hackers
federico I want web content in a rich client
Burgundavia federico: the answer to that is mostly to make our stuff so good the mobile phone companies would be stupid to ignore it
campd it's probably less work to make the browser a rich client
campd and give web authors the power to do that themselves
campd than to hand-write frontends for each useful app
lewing campd: depends on your goal
campd nod
* federico wonders why wikipedia isn't like google word yet
Burgundavia federico: lack of people to develop
hub lack of server power behind
Burgundavia part of that is due to lack of development to optimize mediawiki
federico campd: point
federico campd: probably moonlight is the thing to work on these days :)
* behdad has quit (Leaving.)
* guenther (~guenther@IP-213157009106.dialin.heagmedianet.de) has joined #gnome-hackers
* pvanhoof has quit (Remote closed the connection)
guenther anyone know where I'd Brian Cameron?
* AfC (andrew@office.syd.operationaldynamics.com) has joined #gnome-hackers
orph federico: ya, because the last time some of us tried to embrace an MS platform, it went over gangbusters in the community ;-)
* trs81 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
* syslock has quit (tschüß...)
* J5 has quit (Ex-Chat)
* shana (~shana_@80.172.48.6) has joined #gnome-hackers
Burgundavia federico: look at the mess that KDE had a week or so ago
jdub guenther: as yippi on irc, but rarely
jdub guenther: best to email
guenther jdub: thanks