[21:05:23] troy_s has joined [21:05:23] can someone kick davemorris? [21:05:36] mario, use the previous doc [21:05:40] trust me, i've wanted to do that many times before [21:05:41] Task List [21:05:42] here? [21:05:43] previous doc? [21:05:44] ok [21:05:44] here [21:05:48] no [21:05:52] Daviey_ has joined [21:05:53] im thinking [21:05:57] Meeting Nov4 [21:06:06] here [21:06:19] Phew text colour is ok. [21:06:30] okay anyway [21:06:33] lets get started [21:06:44] Lay on Macduff, and damn be he who cry hold enough. [21:06:45] items from last week [21:06:49] dogtail [21:06:57] it only works if orca is supported i thought? [21:07:08] what's dogtail and orca? (sorry.) [21:07:16] dogtail is an automated testing suite [21:07:18] to try to find bugs [21:07:25] it uses the accessibility features that orca provides [21:07:30] to try to automate testing [21:07:32] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtail [21:07:41] Does anybody here have experience with it? [21:08:01] I was thinking if it could be used to do regression testing, by us making tests for the bugs we fix [21:08:07] I've not used it just heard of it [21:08:12] same here [21:08:14] we need to talk to bdmurray about it [21:08:24] lets defer that untli next meeting and invite him in [21:08:26] sounds good. [21:08:36] okay updating calendar events [21:08:36] tests for the bugs we fix. that sounds like it'd create additional work and it would probably only, well, regressions [21:08:38] that's all tgm [21:08:38] k [21:09:20] who wants secondray on that? [21:09:28] Daviey [21:09:37] okay sounds good [21:09:41] I think Daviey was going to check it for me [21:09:51] as I have a little trouble with UTC and such [21:09:53] (wth am i on the agenda?) [21:09:57] what have i voluntered to do? [21:10:08] laga, just cause :) [21:10:21] Daviey, your going to make sure the calendar times are ok [21:10:26] oh sure [21:10:27] when I put them there [21:10:45] ohh, someones getting fancy [21:10:59] okay what about merchandise [21:11:20] re merch: maybe we can do some case badges. we can ask justinh for assistance [21:11:20] i really like the idea of sweatshirts for everyone this cycle after troy finalizes the main logo [21:11:23] I guess if the logo is changing then we should hold off [21:11:30] yeah [21:11:31] well.. i DON'T want to use the same company as ubuntu stuff... [21:11:44] i can ask MMA where he got his made [21:11:52] he has some sweet ubuntu studio shirts [21:11:57] i bought one from him at UDS [21:12:02] Davivey, I've got details for another 1 we are using at work [21:12:13] but we'll need to defer that also until artwork is finalized [21:12:24] MMA has a bit of knowledge -- we did a bunch of looking prior to his decision. [21:12:53] sure. [21:13:12] okay as for artwork [21:13:14] We should physically have merchanise before next release beta [21:13:16] where we at on that right now? [21:13:34] I did have a question about the artwork and pertaining to Hardy [21:14:11] I heard something about slick-boot finally making it into hardy and wondered if the artwork team was theming that as well [21:14:22] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/slick-boot [21:14:49] thom - I guess that depends on the final direction to be decided. [21:14:51] aww.. it actually works now? [21:15:06] slick-boot sounds good. [21:15:10] thom - as it is now (grr tabs not working in here) I believe the entire pattern is up for debate. [21:15:20] ok [21:15:31] well shall we see the art then? [21:15:42] please [21:15:52] wth is slick boot? [21:16:00] troy_s: see link above [21:16:18] it's about streamlining the boot progcess, eg less mode changes and less falling back to console and less flickering [21:16:18] yeah looking [21:16:21] tgm, that wasn't brought up at UDS [21:16:26] i highly doubt it to make it in [21:16:41] mario, thats funny, I thought it was [21:16:49] it is yet another problem with the Ubuntu cycle -- lack of design from the on high results in people not being able to implement a moving target. [21:17:03] it happened during D/E/etc [21:17:22] "This doesn't need to be proposed for a UDS, we already know the pieces we're waiting for; we just don't have any capability of making them happen faster right now (I'm hiring for someone who could) [21:17:22] " [21:17:41] okay well then lets not worry about it [21:17:56] where are we on the logo though/theme though [21:18:01] and is everyone in agreement about it [21:18:05] 0% on the Theme. [21:18:10] what logo? :) [21:18:22] mario, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-boston-2007?searchtext=slick [21:18:28] Logo should be close to 100% plus or minus palette twiddles that happen on this end. [21:18:44] 65% usplash in design. [21:18:45] re mythbuntu themes: I really don't think the retro theme is a good way to go. If you look at themes for everything else theyre not retro and there is a good reason for this [21:18:47] 0% in code. [21:19:27] davemorris, i think thats the point, is being different [21:19:30] davemorris2_ : Strictly speaking, that would also imply that the other themes are effective and successful. [21:20:09] Retro in itself isn't the issue for me.. It's very slick - but the bright green is for me [21:20:27] if you look at funtuire, there is a retro market, but it's no where near as big as the modern market. I beleive thats the same with themes [21:20:28] tgm yeah asee it wasn't accepted [21:20:28] Daviey has left [21:20:33] can we see the screenshots again? [21:20:39] yes, screenshots please. [21:20:42] Daviey_: Are you speaking of the screen of green? [21:20:51] davemorris has left [21:20:59] huh why did they leave? [21:21:01] First, I'll preface this with a bit of information -- the palette is designed by J. Krause (a subset thereof) [21:21:06] my old account [21:21:08] mal: ghosts. [21:21:10] they probably pinged out [21:21:16] daviey too? [21:21:17] still here! [21:21:21] ahhh [21:21:25] ghosts!!! [21:21:30] who ya gonna call? [21:21:43] J. Krause is a top shelf designer who prints a number of amazing books that are reference material / tools for artist/designer/artsyfarstydweeby types. [21:21:53] Let me see if I can get a clip up [21:22:27] arg [21:22:40] troy_s: you clearly know much more about artwork than me... But i can say that, using myself as a case example, that the light green will clash with my lounge ;) [21:23:14] Where are ben and nick? [21:23:18] Daviey_: I don't profess to know anything more than anyone. In fact, designing things is a whole can of tricky business... just have a peek at the current palette... the colours are different slightly. [21:23:24] so, ok. we have this palette. it's really a bunch of colors, right? (don't kill me, i'm just looking for easy terms here). what makes this palette especially suitable for mythbuntu? note: i'm not criticizing you, i just want some background [21:23:26] daviey is your only complaint the pallete or also the "look"? [21:23:48] because what if there were several available pallete's [21:23:53] like mythbuntu-greenlook [21:23:56] and mythbuntu-bluelook [21:23:57] etc [21:24:02] I think the biggest problem is that we are a group of <10 people, and we shouldn't be looking to decide for everyone. IMO we should either have a.) all the themes available we like up on the site in a poll for a while. b.) not have a default theme and the user is prompted to select one on install, they are shown the various options as thumbnails with a way to blow them up. [21:24:10] mali: Within the given palette, you can always option groups of base tones. [21:24:35] i like polling the community on this [21:24:36] Personaly i prefer deep blue.. I don't have anything against a retro look - i mean, i used the frontend theme retro for >1 year [21:24:40] dave: That will result in tepid delivery, underwhelming design, and horrible beauracracy. You are welcome to pursue that. [21:24:52] http://imagebin.ca/view/icxq93Ok.html [21:24:56] That's the current palette [21:25:01] the user can still choose a different one. i doubt there are people who dont know you can cxhange the theme [21:25:03] like if we make a thread on the forums with 4 options or so [21:25:10] the cornerstone values are the teal, the hot rod rouge, etc. [21:25:10] and see what people generally like the feel of [21:25:15] i'll post the full palette too... hold on. [21:25:22] mario +1 [21:25:46] then we can digg it: "yay preview of mythbuntu artwork" [21:25:51] lol [21:26:02] i'd like to see the full palette first [21:26:07] First thing first [21:26:21] Effective design comes down to two very clear questions: [21:26:23] 1) Audience [21:26:32] 2) Communication / Concept [21:26:44] well as i've said before our audience is very very diverse [21:26:48] Those two items you will find in just about _every_ book on basic art/design. [21:26:53] and international [21:27:04] mal: That is fine. Designing for a Global Audience is a myth [21:27:18] Which means we _need_ to poll our audience to see what they want [21:27:24] it has been proven on a number of occasions, and recently a design site featured an indepth exploration of the myth. [21:27:38] Polling won't accomplish anything [21:27:40] 1) Audience [21:27:49] why not? [21:27:51] who is the audience -- and you can't say 'everyone'. you must pick a demographic and a culture. [21:28:07] thats oldschool thought [21:28:10] because it wont. The world is a relative place. If you don't root the 'guess' in an audience, you will end up with chaos. [21:28:11] Currently our audiences are our diggers :) [21:28:14] stick it in the forums [21:28:22] IMO artwork also needs to put your message across. Retro to me means backwards, hanging on to the past. [21:28:54] Davemorris: your a Sci-Fi fan aren't you? [21:29:04] yeah [21:29:06] in particular, the design idea _can_ work well because it is entirely wrapped about 'new' 'wow' 'superdupertechnology' [21:29:36] most of the presence from that era is about overhyped technology... rather cure. [21:29:38] cute. [21:29:52] http://imagebin.ca/view/id62rk5.html [21:29:57] There is the full palette. [21:29:58] i'm not fearful of this design idea working. i'm just not sure that leaving only one option on color schemes will mesh well with people [21:30:19] mali: It might work it might not. It is about risk. And calculated risks as we know, can have failure or success. [21:30:45] There is no _right_ answer. [21:31:17] troy, using this scheme can you do rough mock up of what you have in mind for say the main menu page of the myth theme? [21:31:20] Also bear in mind that the look of something changes dramatically based on what 'base' tones you run with. [21:31:50] mali: The initial idea was to run with tabletops from the era -- for example [21:31:51] Can we have a vote, to see if we should poll the forum community? [21:31:55] when you are painting a house to sell, you do it netrual colours as such, not bold ones which the buyer might not like. Even though both can easily be replaced, the buyers prefer the netrual colour. I think we should do the same [21:32:26] dav: Have you painted houses? You are aware that high end designers choose elements and are paid extremely well. [21:32:30] using that logic, everything would be grey. [21:32:42] magnolia [21:32:49] **** Can we have a vote, to see if we should poll the forum community? [21:32:53] The thing I want out of a theme is people to use it. If people change it right away, then it has failed [21:32:55] Again, I really don't mind what you folks choose as the 'proper' direction. [21:33:01] poll the comitunitty +1 [21:33:05] +1 [21:33:15] And bear in mind that any poll of the 'community' is also rooted in users that are already using the product. [21:33:18] yeah i agree to poll the community, but it depends on what we would ask. [21:33:21] When we discussed this [21:33:31] the idea was to _attract_ new and _mainstream_ users. [21:33:36] that's true. [21:33:37] This may have changed since then. [21:33:51] poll the community. but: only give a few choices. i like troy's design a lot, maybe if the colors were a bit different (eg the green probably doesn't work well) [21:33:55] I only agree that we should poll the comunity if we can give a clear choice of two options [21:33:58] The problem with polling (having been involved in much art and vote and crap) [21:34:09] is: 1) The poll isn't limited to your focus group. [21:34:44] 2) Polls almost always result in middle grey. The lack of clear and decisive design direcitons are what get us into the tepid deliveries that are all over FOSS. [21:35:11] we could ask them to rank them 1-4 [21:35:24] then we can use STV [21:35:38] Have we agreed to poll the community? [21:35:38] perhaps the poll shouldn't be to make a clear decision of what *to do*, but more what not to do [21:35:58] ranking sounds good, you would then get both [21:35:59] daviey: I'm in agreement only if we come up with a sane poll that is worth doing. [21:36:00] It is a serious error in judgement. But that is only my opinion. You guys should be able to decide for yourselves. [21:36:20] i think that troy has a good point that it can just result in no answers and not getting input from everyone we want. [21:36:51] but retrospectively, if we "dont" poll, we are no better off [21:36:55] yeah, however it's better than the 6 of us deciding [21:36:59] Not at all. [21:37:10] we don't have to follow the poll results [21:37:12] "everyone we want" - can just speak to those we have avaliable.. use the communication resources we have [21:37:15] Some of the most effective works in design and such are often driven by a clear goal with a clear focus. [21:37:47] And again, you are polling a diverse set of technophiles in general. How many manga wallpapers are out on gnome look with high rankings? Should we do that? [21:37:51] well let me put this out there. at UDS I showed a few people where the logo was going so far [21:38:01] to some general people that i know there using myth [21:38:26] and they said that they liked the general look, but couldn't see it fitting in their home theatre setup right now, that it wouldn't mesh well [21:38:34] guys. [21:38:39] (and again, I will state that I really don't mind in any way.) [21:38:40] that's exactly my opinion [21:38:44] i wanna be bold and let troy_s do his job. fuck votes. [21:38:49] and you can change a theme? [21:39:26] troy, same argument, we can set the theme to something else, and people can change it to the retro one [21:39:38] Consider this: The default theme is something that is an advertisement for new users. The idea is to at least get someone to invest an emotional attachment to a product. That is all. [21:39:54] (although maybe we should more emphasis on integration in a htpc setup, eg make the colors a bit more subtle) [21:40:00] dave: You certainly can do whatever you want. You will just need to get a retro theme I guess. [21:40:18] that is my big emphasis is htpc too [21:40:28] i know as it is, it won't fit in my living room with that scheme [21:40:36] My position is.. I think the style and polished look it is currently undertaking rocks.. but the light green is my issue [21:40:52] it won't suit a 26" LCD let along the rest of the room [21:41:19] Anyone have an ftp or something I can post the mp4 of the usplash dev (60%) [21:41:19] would suit my old crt tv though :) [21:41:44] troy_s how big is it? [21:41:46] Dav: The light green is rather irrelevant -- there could be anything there. [21:42:18] tho: about 800k [21:42:30] we should be able to upload that to mythbuntu.org [21:42:44] if we can't get it elsewhere [21:43:22] okay lets do this. just as a matter of opinion, i want to do the poll and see what our current audience thinks. [21:43:31] tho: I could put up an ssh, but it is easier to put up a http link. [21:43:42] mario, can we do a ranking poll on the forums [21:43:49] tgm yeah [21:43:57] troy, can you email it to me, and I'll stick it on the webpage [21:44:03] so we can put up that scheme [21:44:04] the logo [21:44:05] tho: email? [21:44:13] thomas@weilandhomes.com [21:44:18] davewalker@ubuntu.com [21:44:23] mali: if you are going to present it for a poll, at least give it a good chance by having some formatting. [21:44:37] the discreet components don't really do it justice to be honest... it is in the bigger picture. [21:44:42] agreed [21:44:45] hm [21:44:57] let me defend my reasoning quickly for the poll. [21:45:07] our biggest audience is the 20k+ current users [21:45:19] we will be getting more people later, and we will need something to bring them in yes [21:45:27] but in the immediate future, we dont want to lose them. [21:45:38] somehow i don't think a theme will lose users [21:45:57] that is rather like saying ubuntus rather sad and terribly poorly executed design has an impact on users [21:46:00] it will if we change the usplash theme on them etc [21:46:02] to the point of changing distributions. [21:46:18] well i know a lot of people like the default mythbuntu theme right now [21:46:28] troy_s, ubuntu has had reviews that have had thier major 'con' as being the brown.. [21:46:37] tho: coming at you now. [21:46:42] k [21:46:44] daviey^ +1 [21:46:45] dav: it isn't the brown. [21:46:50] would be nice to have figures on what theme people are using :) [21:47:02] it is a lack of design education, lack of vision, and a horrible final choice. [21:47:12] the brown is a completely successful designing colour [21:47:35] the shite implementation of it, with no supporting palette, and a horrible set of 'rules' that certain people live by. [21:47:51] if you need any more proof, have a peek at some of starbucks multibilliondollar award winning design. [21:47:51] i'd like the point of the poll to be to see if the current users would consider using a theme based upon that pallete [21:48:18] but if that's a bad idea (since it the whole "look") then we can defer it [21:48:19] thomas: check your mail. [21:48:37] And again, I really don't mind on all this. Anyone here is free to step up and say 'hey its shit.' lol. [21:48:52] not even ubuntu's poor support for kde is enough to drive me away :) [21:49:09] troy.. is there any chance you can provide an compiled usplash and frontend theme that i can demo? I know it's not finished yet [21:49:16] The bottom line is that I firmly believe the strength of Mythbuntu is in the _future_ users... not the current. [21:49:39] And attracting _those_ users is the key. Ubuntu is Ubuntu. Put 'buntu' in your name and you get dugg. [21:49:40] Done deal. [21:49:45] http://www.mythbuntu.org/usplash [21:49:53] Putting 'buntu' into the mainstream audiences mind is a _whole_ other can of worms. [21:49:53] "current" users, btw, will already have their database setup in many cases so they dont even see the new theme ;) [21:50:06] tory, yeah future users. But future users are gonna be recommened by current users. And new users often go on 1st impressions [21:50:27] can't we be a bit more elitist? :) [21:50:42] Troy_s: have you made the animation smaller? [21:50:54] Dav: No, I don't believe so. [21:51:20] Dav: The whole thing is a relative -- the boot process will require probable composition of the smpte header over the 'footage'. [21:51:45] In terms of an audience, a home theatre enthusiast isn't going to be using Mythbuntu. [21:51:47] where is the vid? thomas' link doesn't work for me [21:51:58] troy_s: heh.. you have to remember me, and most of the rest of the team have no idea what you just said.. [21:52:02] (not yet at least -- until you can get the street creds of macintosh etc.) [21:52:02] troy - what makes you say that? [21:52:14] HOW DO YOU TAB COMPLETE! [21:52:16] grr [21:52:23] laga, you should be able to download the vid from there [21:52:26] it's listed [21:52:35] http://www.mythbuntu.org/files/render0001_0250.mp4 [21:52:42] http://www.mythbuntu.org/files/render0001_0250.mp4 [21:52:43] yeah [21:53:08] dave: Very easy -- home theatre elitism is a very high end market driven by exclusive DACs and god knows how expensive cables. It is driven almost entirely by how much you pay for a small component. [21:53:12] Right.. can we wrap this segment up? [21:53:38] ugh okay. so we're going to defer making a poll until this is further along [21:53:46] and has an overarching look to add to it? [21:53:47] agreed [21:53:57] okay [21:54:03] moving on to blueprints [21:54:15] Agenda ^ [21:54:38] we need to decide which ones are going to be implemented [21:54:41] and who is going to do them [21:55:13] [IDEA] we only have 20mins per topic [21:55:28] i did a lot of them myself the last cycle through so i'd like to see everyone committing to more of them personally and sticking to them [21:55:37] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/ 52! [21:56:01] how come Daviey's doesn't even present as a link? [21:56:08] dang UK people ;) [21:56:15] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/ [21:56:17] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/mythbuntu [21:56:20] http://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/ [21:56:25] its the https [21:56:40] Personally, I don't have a great deal of time this cycle. Due to work/masters commitments [21:56:48] its really only 46 [21:57:02] the cycle through the summer is better for me [21:57:08] davemorris2, thats fine [21:57:15] can you plan to manage bugs as your main thing then? [21:57:25] * Daviey_ needs to spend some time reading through the blueprints [21:57:32] keep up with getting them upstream and organizing them and suhc [21:57:35] yeah thats not a problem [21:57:45] okay that sounds good [21:58:25] i dont have much time either this cycle, university is eating up almost all of my free time. of course i'll make time to work on mythbuntu [21:58:47] i'll help wth getting the bugs upstream since i know many of those people [21:59:03] so feel free to ask me if you're in doubt, davemorris [21:59:14] laga can you perhaps plan to ge tsome of the smaller ones? [21:59:21] malimonc: blueprints? sure [21:59:24] like adding a vnc applet [21:59:37] or that test card for hte display [21:59:40] yeah, hm. right. for some reason i had put that off ;) [21:59:46] yers, those are my favorites. i'll get to it. [21:59:58] okay please mark yourself on them and mark them as approved [22:00:07] Who can approve blueprints for hardy [22:00:13] can't anyone? [22:00:24] i think he means as a general rule [22:00:30] I've added what I think should be done for hardy to the Nov4 metting [22:00:42] thomas: yes [22:00:56] i thought we weren't using that document??? [22:00:57] psh. [22:01:25] what we need to do is prioritize them [22:01:48] IMO the ones I added need doing, not sure which other ones you wanna tackle. I'm guessing this cycle will have less done so most of us can do out uni work [22:01:49] okay well tgm how are you on time this cycle? [22:01:49] I think we could quickly go down the list and quickly vote on each for a priority [22:02:02] I say discuss a certain amount week on ML [22:02:13] Then we can draw out the blueprint [22:02:35] My time sucks, but I'll do more than my one blueprint from last cycle [22:02:51] * malimonc shrugs [22:03:02] daviey and you? [22:03:04] I think with better organisation, we can all do more.... [22:03:22] yes [22:03:35] yeagh. need to organize uni better first, though ;) [22:03:37] I will find time :) [22:03:40] priorities? It would sure help me knowing which was needed more [22:04:03] okay well my big ones are going to be the lirc ones [22:04:09] so those are my top priority [22:04:22] right, but what do we have to have in hardy? [22:04:33] yes IMO [22:04:35] I'd say the LIRC ones, partitioning, theming [22:04:43] well also [22:04:55] an important thing are any that make the user experience easier and error proof [22:05:05] yes [22:05:10] +1 to mali [22:05:17] i'm thinking particularly of hte notifier one that i regitsered [22:05:41] i'd set some as HIGH (not essiental) ones that would make our life easier [22:05:47] IE, error reporting [22:05:52] tgm, have you looked at that one? i registered it thinking i could mentor you toward that one [22:06:18] looking now [22:07:30] that looks like a good one [22:07:33] * Daviey_ afk [22:08:07] tgm so could you plan to focus on that? [22:08:19] already assigned :) [22:09:11] laga, if you can do mythbuntu-lighttpd-web [22:09:17] i think that it would be feasible [22:09:29] to add support to the mythweb packages to depend on lighttpd | apache2 etc [22:09:37] and ship with some good defaults [22:10:00] anyone handy with css/html/mysql ? [22:10:24] they could do a web version of mythtv-setup [22:10:38] well that's going to be a very involved blueprint i suspect [22:10:54] didn't you say you might have some univ students that might want to ? [22:11:05] yeah, none wanted to do it :( [22:11:11] they thought it was to hard LOL [22:11:24] I think a cheap and easy way of doing hwdb-client would be to just make a small test.ogg and have that play from ubiquity [22:13:08] well i'd like to keep them sep apps [22:13:56] k [22:14:04] hmm [22:14:18] perhaps with some of the extra space we have available we could make a test app [22:14:26] well [22:14:26] small video file with sound [22:14:34] all of juski's themes i'm going to have in multiverse [22:14:36] and shipped on the disk [22:14:39] back [22:14:44] could integrate it with lagas test pattern [22:14:57] tgm yea that sounds good [22:15:03] can you make it depend on laga's test pattern [22:15:07] yep [22:15:09] daviey, what kind of specs do you wnat? [22:16:07] Don't know exactly.. [22:16:15] I want to work with lirc and lcd [22:16:22] lirc recorder and submitter [22:16:22] daviey can you do the lcd ones then? [22:16:28] yep [22:16:51] as for the lirc recorder and submitter, you thinking a sep python app to do this? [22:17:07] that perhaps uses python-launchpad-bugs to file a report? [22:17:08]