Maloeran The 12 apostles aren't even 12 if you count them, more about 15 or 16 Dr^Nick not officially Maloeran It's ambiguous, I remember they might have used different names for the same characters since some descriptions were similar Maloeran At least 14 anyway, I definitely counted Dr^Nick http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/apostles.htm Unition I have never even sat with a bible in my hand for more then 8 minuts Maloeran Ah this was 10 years ago, but if you read carefully, you'll find more Unition or stood for that matter Dr^Nick Maloeran - eh, I don't know about that Dr^Nick :) Dr^Nick Because they change their names as they act and stuff... Maloeran Yes, I had tried to keep track of this... Anyway, it's like the different evangiles don't agree on who some of the "lesser" apostles are Dr^Nick yep Dr^Nick the # of them really is unimportant Dr^Nick The were not labelled at the time of their actions Dr^Nick that came later Dr^Nick and independently from different groups Dr^Nick the standard is that there were 21 Dr^Nick er 12 Maloeran I suppose it's a detail. The best quotes are probably... like the one about that man, who was made drunk by his two daughters, then raped and infanted them, but God said it's all good since he was drunk at the time * Maloeran only remembers vaguely Dr^Nick I remember that from sunday school Dr^Nick You got it backwards though * Rangar (dave@203.96.142.64) has joined #siggraph Maloeran Yes it's possible Dr^Nick His daughters got him drunk and raped him. * riisbot gives channel operator status to Rangar Unition and gods ok with that ? * Rangar blinks and wonders what convo he walked in to Dr^Nick They had just watch their entire civilization collapse Maloeran Sure he was Dr^Nick they thought they were the last people alive. Dr^Nick as such, they though they had to repopulate the earth Dr^Nick (They were uneducated women after all) Rangar um,m are we talking Noah? Dr^Nick ya Maloeran Some other nice contradictions are related to God never feeling angry, or desperate... for this to be contradicted a few paragraphs later Rangar um,m it was his sons not his daughters that raped him Rangar Thats why he cursed them Dr^Nick hm. then not noah. there was one where his daughters did Maloeran Ah, I don't remember names Rangar You mean Lot ;) Dr^Nick sure Dr^Nick that sounds a Lot like the right name. Dr^Nick mal - yep Rangar Lot didn't do his fatherly duty and got them husbands, but because he didn't and his daughters wanted children, they didn't have much options Dr^Nick God as the bible portrays can not exist according to our knowledge of the universe. Maloeran I was 12-13 at the time, and I couldn't help thinking that God had a very childish psychological profile Rangar Nick: why do you say that? Dr^Nick People like myself know that and say "damnit all anyway" Dr^Nick Rangar - If god is all powerful and perfect, he can do anything - but he can do no wrong. Rangar I don't mind a good theological debate if thats the current ;) Dr^Nick so there is something he can't do Dr^Nick thus he is either not all powerful or not perfect Dr^Nick we can easily show that by our laws of the universe, he can not be all powerful Dr^Nick assume god is all powerful -> Can god create a problem he can not solve? Rangar Nick: The Bible never says that in the terms you reflect ... Thats like the age old "Can God create a rock He cannot lift", common sense is required :) _Astaroth Dr^Nick: Einsten, Edward Witten and Richard P. Feynman were all very relighous people Dr^Nick _Astaroth - no, they werent Unition unless he is the programmer and has not friended us to his privates Maloeran We never had any observation, even hints, regarding the supposed existence of some god. That debate is meaningless, it should remain on the topic of some piece of ancient science-fiction _Astaroth youre right.. religious then :P Dr^Nick Nope :) _Astaroth then they are lying Rangar Unition: You bring up a valid point - one of science's latest thinkings is that the universe is a holographic program, I was readning all about it in last Augusts Science magazine _Astaroth which might be possible of course _Astaroth but they say they are Dr^Nick _Astaroth = Einstien said he believed in a god yes. He also said he did not believe in a personal god. Unition hahaha nice! Dr^Nick To quote paul erdos 'I know because I asked him' Rangar Einstein was also Jewish, but I believe not practicing any in way, shape or form _Astaroth whats a "personal god" and how does it define religion? _Astaroth and how does "believe in god" != religious Maloeran If god is impersonal, then you might well call it the uncertainty principle Rangar Ast: A personal God is one you have a relationship with (just like a friend, talk to etc), a non-personal God is one where he demands worship only Unition I think religion is a great thing but I also think it was invented by man for man to keep us good Dr^Nick _Astaroth - A non-personal god is something that designed the universe, but does not even have to be concious Rangar also as Nick put it, it could be defined in several ways _Astaroth Dr^Nick:sure.. but why does the god have to be concious for someone to be religious _Astaroth ? Maloeran Get it right Unition, it was invented by men to keep other men into submission and ignorance Dr^Nick I suppose it doesn't. it does require worship. another thing lacking from einstiens life. Rangar Christianity defines God as a God who wants a relationship with people, to be involved in their everyday lives Unition you hit the nail on the head there :) Rangar through prayer this is accumplished Dr^Nick Maloeran - I disagree. _Astaroth yeah, but all the names I mentioned are Jews Dr^Nick Religion was the first science. Unition religion is a cult _Astaroth Religion is utter madness Rangar One of the major flaws to Christianity to the world is the lack of understanding exactly what Christianity is Maloeran Throughout the ages, it was a powerful tool used by the power in place to assure its control over the masses Dr^Nick But as science moved, religion didn't keep up (people couldn't afford the education) Dr^Nick Maloeran =- absolutely Dr^Nick But it was originally an attempt at science Dr^Nick A way to explain the unknown _Astaroth there are 50k or so different branches in christianity that are incompatible in many ways Maloeran Yes, I suppose, people brought up theories to explain their universe _Astaroth so the odds for any one of them being "right" is pretty slim :P Unition and they got burnt Maloeran A pity they didn't have the scientific method back then Dr^Nick It wasn't until much later that it was used for control Rangar hmm interesting, Maybe you guys need to do some Bible readong and see that the Bible has answers in it science is just discovering Unition science is the new religion Rangar Job in the Bible is a good place to start with a scientific background Maloeran I have read the Bible twice, Hal, you won't find much in there besides absurdity and contradictions Unition science and the commandments are what I base my life around Dr^Nick Mal - Imho people take it the wrong way Dr^Nick I mean, look at the 10 commandments for example Rangar Mal: example? Dr^Nick essentially it says "don't be a retard" Dr^Nick don't dip your spoon in your neighbours pudding, and keep your nose clean. Unition :) Dr^Nick beyond that there are health codes Rangar The Commandments had another job... to show us we fall below God's standards for us Maloeran Hal, way too many to count and name, I had taken notes back then... http://skepticsannotatedbible.org/ Unition we should write the 21 century commandments Maloeran Thou shall not download illegal music Dr^Nick Essentially the bible is a health (physical and mental) guide to a happy life. Dr^Nick In the old testament you couldn't eat pork... Dr^Nick in the new, you could Dr^Nick why? Better cooking technology. Unition I thought that was sabbath ? _Astaroth the old testament described ways to torture and kill hethens Unition hahaha _Astaroth the real one, not the modern one Dr^Nick it talks about preventing std's Rangar _Ast: There is a good reaosn for that Dr^Nick and that sort of thing Dr^Nick it just got pushed too far by zealots Unition so the bible was the media back in the day Dr^Nick people who didn't understand what was going on Dr^Nick people who took it literally _Astaroth Rangar: of course.. religion is and always has been, a tool for the people in power to control the stupid masses _Astaroth just look at Bush Rangar _Ast: Look in Genesis Ch6 it mentions the Nephelim (PART human offspring), when Israel came out of Egypt and had to travel to the promised land, the hethen that God told them to wipe out were either Nephilum or part of their culture. * Twingy (~justin@lgb-cust-66.18.154.210.mpowercom.net) has joined #siggraph Twingy hrm Twingy guess it's bed time Unition :D Unition you dont even know what you walked into _Astaroth eheh Maloeran Indeed Justin :) Dr^Nick Religion shouldn't impeed a scientific mind. Maloeran Hal, there are instructions regarding how one should properly buy a slave, or sell a daughter, too Dr^Nick No god who gave me a brain would encourage me to forgo its use _Astaroth and the "part human offspring" sounds like nazism to me _Astaroth maybe hitler was right Unition heh Rangar Nick: On the contrary, The God of the Bible encourages it - in several places He sayd that all is made for man and for man to expore, look at Soloman, God gave him the gift of science Dr^Nick Rangar - Ok. And we know the bible is contradictory Dr^Nick Period Dr^Nick Not even the pope of the catholic church can deny it _Astaroth I'm sure he will :) Rangar Mal: in our culture we don't endorse slavery, but other cultures on earth even today say it's the norm, so what culture is right? Rangar Nick: I disagree :) Dr^Nick People have messed with what it says for a very long time, it was written by multiple authors with some first, some second, and some third (or greater) hand accounts Maloeran I'm sure I can remember some of the passages where God broke its own 10 commandments... Maloeran I remember reading that he swore to himself once * Twingy has quit (Ping timeout: no data for 250 seconds)