____ __ ___ ___ __ __ _ ____ _ ________ _ _ _____ |___ \ / /_ / _ \ / _ \ | \/ | / \ / ___| / \ |__ /_ _| \ | | ____| __) | '_ \| | | | | | | | |\/| | / _ \| | _ / _ \ / / | || \| | _| / __/| (_) | |_| | |_| | | | | |/ ___ \ |_| |/ ___ \ / /_ | || |\ | |___ |_____|\___/ \___/ \___/ |_| |_/_/ \_\____/_/ \_\/____|___|_| \_|_____| [ ---------------------------[ Emmanuel Lolstein ]---------------------------- ] Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:11:48 -0400 From: Emmanuel Goldstein To: irc@hackint.org Subject: Re: plan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 04:10:12PM -0400, D1ck wrote: > > I don't recall saying a single thing or taking any action that would > > support what you say. You're just attempting to get a reaction by > > injecting falsehoods into a discussion. This appears to be your specialty. > > i'll break the cycle of "no, you" by noting that i keep all my email and > can pull examples of this on demand, if necessary. Considering I've said about a dozen words on the network in the last year and have been quite content to leave the adminning to the admins, I'd be real impressed to see how you pull this off. > i'll also point out that the comments of "injecting falsehoods" and this > being my "specialty" seem to be out of nowhere. i'll ask you, very > simply: what have i said is a lie? i don't think you'll be able to > answer this. Do you think people don't talk to me? I've heard from so many different sources the kinds of horrible lies you spread about me and I've seen it for myself. Here are a couple of the more recent examples with my apologies for forcing everyone else to wade through this shit: < d1ck> you should break from 2600net. < d1ck> seriously. < d1ck> enough shit has happened that my threshold of polite avoidance of the issues has been crossed. < d1ck> i don't want my name to be attached to this shit, and you shouldn't either. <@rodent|m> so my suggestion still stands.. people who don't wanna be affiliated, get removed from the mag irc admin thing, and only admin from a network level < d1ck> whether it's kidtouching, or hope bullshit, or etc. < d1ck> also, i'm kinda disgusted by the way things are being run here <@d1ck> kidtouching or pederasty aside <@r0d3nt> the guy was willing, but yet... <@d1ck> nobody would tolerate this behavior if it was a guy getting a chick drunk and then taking advantage of her <@d1ck> why do we tolerate it from him. <@j4n3> sorry guys i gotta step away for 2 mins <@d1ck> and all of this aside <@d1ck> 2600 is a fucking joke [r0d3nt and r0d3nt|m are Andrew Strutt in the above exerpt.] Personally, I couldn't care less what you think about 2600 and you're more than welcome to say all the bad things about it that you want. But when you go sneaking around spreading horrible lies about someone while at the same time pretending to be on good terms with them in a public setting, that's about as deceptive and low as anyone can stoop. If you have a problem with someone, have the guts to say it to their face and not go around spreading your lies behind their back. Your behavior is atrocious, offensive, and cowardly. > i'll keep this discussion on the technical/administrative side of things > unless you want to open up that can of worms on the political side. i'm > doing this for your benefit, but if you want to go there, just say the > word and we'll go there By all means, open your can of worms. Perhaps they'll teach you something. > - i'm the reason this network got off its feet after the ddos of years > ago; > - i'm the reason various other people have got involved, e.g. r0d3nt > - i'm the reason #2600 has stayed mostly in-order for the last few > years (with much help from r0d3nt lately); > - i'm the reason 2600net hasn't been dropped by ddosers on a few > occasions; > - i'm the reason 2600net hasn't been dropped by the admins on a few > occasions; > - i took ddoses on 2600net's behalf on multiple occasions; > - etc, etc, etc I congratulate you on these accomplishments. But now, in the present tense, you are behaving in a destructive, divisive, vindictive, petty, immature, and embarrassing manner. I supported you when you were constructive. That is not the case now. Look to your own words - you say that I started by doing something good and now I'm evil and a danger to society. People change. > but i guess wanting to have fun on april fool's is enough to be branded > as mr. judas iscariot himself (LOL, JUDECCA REFERENCE)? I honestly have no idea what you're even talking about here. > as for being "an embarassment to all of us," i think you should be very, > very careful with that phrase, especially in the hackint crowd. That sounds real ominous. I'm intrigued. Please elaborate. > i disagree with your management style: you need to be the guy in charge > who makes rulings from on high, but you're never on the network. you > don't know what's going on "on the ground," so to speak. you get upset > over channel bans on people who want to fuck up #2600. you support > akilling people who talk about you unfavorably, but get upset over > akilling people who harass ircops on a daily basis. Where are you getting this from? I don't even support *kicking* people who talk about me unfavorably. This is more delusional nonsense. > emmanuel-- this isn't YOUR network. it hasn't been for a long time. and > trying to tell me i'm a one-off case and look to hackint for support is > pretty amusing, given the reason why hackint was founded. don't know > what that is? oh right, you don't. funny, that. I feel like I must have missed a conversation somewhere along the line. Did I make decrees in my sleep or something? How am I suddenly involved in this debate when I haven't even been in a dialogue? > good luck finding people who want to run your network in your style. > ever stopped to wonder why people all jump ship every few years? same > reason they do at HOPE: because you don't treat the people who work for > you with respect, you burn through them and their resources until they > get fed up with your disrespect and leave. if you want to have a serious > discussion about this, i'd be happy to, but somehow i don't expect you > to want to listen to me about subjects like how badly we got fucked over OK, again, this is all coming from somewhere inside your inner self. Now you're going to expand and start attacking HOPE? We have some of the best people in the community involved in the conferences and most of the people who were with us 10 years ago are still here today with many more who have joined them. I have no idea how you think you got "fucked over" - all I know is we gave you all the speaking slots you requested, more than most other conferences will do by your own admission. Apparently, the network team didn't want to work with you (I can't imagine WHY) but that's not even something I'm involved in. And, again, you never said a word to me about any of this. All I got from you after the conference was an email asking me to come to your party. Maybe I should have tried to read between the lines? > pull my o:lines if you want, everyone (if you haven't already, which was > implied by miles' email). if you're going to let emmanuel dictate > policy, good luck. apparently i'm the guy that hasn't done shit (see > list above), so it won't be much of a loss if i go, eh? good luck with > that. I don't really know what started all of this. But you're lashing out for no particular reason in a seemingly random way and that's no good for anyone, especially you. I just hope everyone else is as sick of it as I am. e -- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 03:55:17 -0400 From: Emmanuel Goldstein To: "Irc@Hackint. Org" Subject: Re: the gordian knot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) I can really only check in on all this fun every couple of days so I'll try to be quick and to the point. On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 08:57:54AM +0200, l4nc3 wrote: > > I have to admit that also it was the wish of to take the network out of > emmanuels hands. That would happen on the simple way that if 2600 > decides to join into hackint emmanuel will not so easily be in the > position to abuse his powers. The way you phrase this makes it sound like this was a problem. I think maybe in some people's MINDS it was, but in practice? I don't USE any IRC admin powers, not even channel ops. All I do is point the DNS to those people who wanted to be a part of the network. It was never MY network but it most certainly was a network affiliated with 2600, a fact that I've actually had to argue on occasion. ("The 2600 network has nothing to do with 2600" is a serious position of some of the 2600 bashers who still want the name recognition.) > Well, to see it this way we have succeded. Emmanuel in the last days in > hackint has not tried to influence the network and i see him pulling > back more and more - at least from irc. Well, I'm pulling back from IRC to avoid the kind of crap I've had to endure here. But you think it's a success if I don't try and influence the network? Why would I want to be a part of something if I couldn't influence it? Isn't that what this discussion is about? If I was being abusive in some way I could see why my being involved less and less would be seen as a success. This statement really puzzles me. > In the irclogs emmanuel posted d1ck has accused emmanuel to be a > kidtoucher and a pederast. He openly speaks about this on #2600 that > emmanuel approaches young looking boys and trying to pull them in a > situation a yellow press would call delicate. And people who don't know any better believe him. > I know that this rumor exists for a while, and i know it upsets a lot of > hackers in the community over there in the states and i think it a > reason that some decide not wanting to have anything to do with > emmanuel, 2600 and hope. And here you see the damage that his lies cause. > Emmanuel has requested that they loose ircop due to ircop abuse. I think > we have found out that in this case d1ck abused his ircoper powers > were on April 1st and i count it as a April joke. j4n3 did not use ircoper > privs to op everyone in #2600. Actually I'm saying I can't be in an organization where people like this have any sort of administrative position. I don't really care about IRC pranks. I do care about malicious and destructive people screwing things up for others and I want no part of that. > ** view on 2600 > Emmanuel has build up 2600 and has had help from others with this. I do > think 2600 is a good idea in general. I do have my critisism and > especially I do see some improvement points. I'm not dismissing any of your points and I've heard a number of them from other people. But - and this may be a cultural difference - the magazine is just that - one magazine, run by a bunch of people and offering support to various projects that run in our name - the meetings, the conferences, IRC, newsgroups. We don't represent the American hacker community the way that CCC represents the German hacker community. We are but one voice and there are others that we support and who support us - MAKE Magazine, the growing Hacker Space movement, even ham radio organizations. Put simply, we're a business, not a collective. A business with high ideals but a business all the same. We support various forums that are run in our name and we try to keep them as open ended, self sufficient, and accessible as possible. But, as they are in our name, we do attach some guidelines. I'm aware of the resistance that occasionally is voiced to various points, the Friday rule of our meetings being one of them. We've asked for any ideas for alternatives in the magazine but the simplicity of knowing the meeting day wherever you are seems to strongly outweigh the criticism. It's been done successfully this way for over 20 years but I'm still open to ideas on other ways to do it. But, to conclude this little explanation of how we do things, we ultimately make the decisions after considering the feedback we get. We also decide who we want to work with and who we don't. This can rub some people the wrong way when we don't let them into "the inner sanctum" but that's our decision. We could easily have 50 people on "Off The Hook" and 500 trying to run the network at HOPE. Decisions have to be made and it can cause griping and bitching from people who feel they had more to offer than we felt they did. This is unavoidable. > Some people accuse him of strange sexual behaviure where i personally > think that as long as he is not breaking the law its his personal thing > - and as far as i know he has not broken the law. It's incredible to me to see this kind of ignorance and hatred being spread in a community like this. This is something I intend to share with a great number of people so that they can see firsthand how minds are polluted, even by supposedly intelligent people. > Furthermore i think by standing in public to his choice would help > removeing what some people call shadyness about this. I am very sure > more people will be willing to work with him then and noone can accuse > him of trying to trick people into whatever situations. But this is his > very personal choice, and i respect his right to decide this by himself. I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party. > As stated out above this decision of removing irc.2600.net is made by > emmanuel. So therefore the decision if d1ck will leave or not is done > by emmanuel as d1ck has bound his decision to leave or not in a clumsy > way to a decision emmanuel is makeing. We might like it or not. No, it's not my decision. It's that of the others here. If I have a problem with anyone here, I bring it up to them or in a place where I know they will see it. I don't go around spreading rumors about people, telling lies, and attempting to destroy a community in the process. These two clowns not only do this but they do it to someone they pretend to be working with and on good terms with - until he turns his back. If this kind of behavior is tolerable on your network, then I can't in good conscience be a part of it. And I would say the same thing if this were happening to any of you. So that's where I stand and it's pretty much always been where I've stood. e -- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:19:34 -0400 From: Emmanuel Goldstein To: irc@hackint.org Subject: Re: the gordian knot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 09:03:52AM -0400, D1ck wrote: > > i dislike the fact that i can't trust rodent at all, whether to have > him keep conversations in confidence or with accountability for various > actions on the network (server linking, i:lines, akills, etc.) I've never known him to say things behind people's backs. Whenever there's been a problem, he's either msged me or emailed me to discuss it directly. I can see why that would bother you. > i dislike the fact that i have had to stay very silent on topics like > "emmanuel tried to get a good friend of mine drunk and take him home > under very questionable circumstances." i didn't say he was a kidtoucher > or pederast in those logs; i was saying i had issues with his behavior > OUTSIDE of all these claims. that is, i have seen him use alcohol and > his status as a "hacker celebrity" to try to convince people-- yes, > always young boys, but this is irrelevant-- to do things that they would > be uncomfortable with later on. And I am demanding that you provide specifics to back up your claims. You're already well over the line of slander so you might want to start gathering your facts so they're easily accessible to you. > (hint to emmanuel: if you don't like people talking about your > "questionable behavior," STOP DOING IT IN PUBLIC AT HACKER CONS AND > PARTIES.) And just what would that questionable behavior be exactly? TALKING to people? Believe it or not, people do talk to other people without having ulterior motives. Is this really such an alien concept to you? Of all the people I wind up talking to and hanging out with at these events, you always fixate on the young males. Seriously, is this about me or about you? > i dislike the fact that i have had to stay silent on topics like > "emmanuel lied to the community on the issue of hope 6 bandwidth" and i > dislike even more that i got fucked over pretty hard for what went down > there-- blamed for the mistakes of others (specifically arp) when i had > nothing i could do and no control over the situation. I lied to the community about bandwidth? Wow. I'm really trying to figure this one out with no luck. Sorry. > (hint to emmanuel: if you don't like people talking about your ways of > using and burning through and dropping people before picking up the next > crowd, STOP DOING IT.) We have 90% of the same network team so far this year. No lie. Really. > i've been trying to make things better for something like 6 years now. > it hasn't worked, i'm done trying, now it's time for me to focus on > repairing the damage that's been done to my reputation because of it. You have a very odd way of trying to "make things better," at least in this instance. e -- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 04:49:37 -0400 From: Emmanuel Goldstein To: irc@hackint.org Subject: Re: the gordian knot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 01:19:14PM -0400, j4n3 wrote: > > All was well until emmanuel got sp07 drunk and tried to butt rape him at the > ccc in 2005. How about we track him down and get the facts? I have absolutely had it with your bullshit. > After multiple talks with d1ck and others we decided to > merge with hackint to over throw emmanuel and make the network ours. Seeing > as it is literally an age since hackint merged - and emmanuel / 2600 are > still on the network this takeover failed miserably. Even though you're probably lying again, I wouldn't doubt this was indeed part of your agenda. I think there's a very fine line between reality and fantasy in your world. > Then I was told that emmanuel tried the tactics he used in 22c3 at notacon > - but this time it was with troy. From a few days ago: -> *troy* just wanted to let you know - i've gotten this from at least 3 different people - d1ck and at least one other are going around spreading nas ty rumors about you and me. i just figured a) you should be aware of this, b) yo u should know that there's nothing to it as far as i know at least, and c) it's probably best not to talk to me in public with clowns like this around *troy* i agree wholeheartedly, nothing to worry about. > Other ircops advised that this was retarded and only caused disruption to > them because emmanuel doesn't even use irc. My reply was why the hell > haven't we gotten rid of him already if that's the case? Wasn't that the > point of the merge with hackint? To create a purer irc network for hackers, > one free of him and his organisation who's sole reason for creation was to > meet young males? This is the level of conversation we've achieved on the network administrator mailing list? > I'll help hackint if it's hackint minus twenty six hundred. I'm not willing > to dip my head in the sand like so many others and ignore why 2600 was > really created and what emmanuel is really like. In a strange way I feel guilty for having brought all of this to people who have probably never witnessed this level of stupidity before. Maybe this happens on the German side too but I really doubt it. I wouldn't blame them for severing all ties to 2600net just for the insult to our intelligence that this discussion has become. e -- Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 13:10:10 -0400 To: Emmanuel Goldstein CC: irc@hackint.org Subject: Re: the gordian knot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Emmanuel Goldstein wrote: > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 01:19:14PM -0400, j4n3 wrote: > >> All was well until emmanuel got sp07 drunk and tried to butt rape him at the >> ccc in 2005. >> > > How about we track him down and get the facts? I have absolutely had it > with your bullshit. > > I'm going to visit sp07 in Wales within the next 6 weeks. We'll do a reenactment and post it to youtube. I'll mail on the link to the IRC mailing list. For the record, E, sp07 is not troy. What I mean is, he's not someone you've brainwashed. He can remember the events and has no problem recalling it. Other than the youtube video, how would you like me to bring him in on this conversation? I'll bring m4ry into it as well, because he was there. It's probably worth bringing d4d3 into it too - and d1ck is already aware of what went on. SURELY all of us are "making stuff up", and "have an agenda". Or maybe you're just a fucking pederast. >> After multiple talks with d1ck and others we decided to >> merge with hackint to over throw emmanuel and make the network ours. Seeing >> as it is literally an age since hackint merged - and emmanuel / 2600 are >> still on the network this takeover failed miserably. >> > > Even though you're probably lying again, I wouldn't doubt this was indeed > part of your agenda. I think there's a very fine line between reality and > fantasy in your world. > > I'm not lying. We merged with hackint with the aim of over throwing you, stealing your users and saying bye bye to 2600. >> Then I was told that emmanuel tried the tactics he used in 22c3 at notacon >> - but this time it was with troy. >> > > From a few days ago: > -> *troy* just wanted to let you know - i've gotten this from at least 3 > different people - d1ck and at least one other are going around spreading nas > ty rumors about you and me. i just figured a) you should be aware of this, b) yo > u should know that there's nothing to it as far as i know at least, and c) it's > probably best not to talk to me in public with clowns like this around > *troy* i agree wholeheartedly, nothing to worry about. > > troy is embarrassed. To be honest though, I care more about what I SAW with my own eyes back in 2005. Not only what I saw, but what several people saw. >> Other ircops advised that this was retarded and only caused disruption to >> them because emmanuel doesn't even use irc. My reply was why the hell >> haven't we gotten rid of him already if that's the case? Wasn't that the >> point of the merge with hackint? To create a purer irc network for hackers, >> one free of him and his organisation who's sole reason for creation was to >> meet young males? >> > > This is the level of conversation we've achieved on the network administrator > mailing list? > > LOL DONGS. >> I'll help hackint if it's hackint minus twenty six hundred. I'm not willing >> to dip my head in the sand like so many others and ignore why 2600 was >> really created and what emmanuel is really like. >> > > In a strange way I feel guilty for having brought all of this to people > who have probably never witnessed this level of stupidity before. Maybe > this happens on the German side too but I really doubt it. I wouldn't > blame them for severing all ties to 2600net just for the insult to our > intelligence that this discussion has become. > > e > > You should feel guilty for trying to butt rape young males, and guilty for bringing your own name and the name of 2600 into disrepute. You are your own worst enemy. j4n3.